New and cancelled destinations, major schedule and operational changes
Mar 15, 2019, 8:03 am
#1231
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,167
Mar 15, 2019, 11:05 pm
#1233
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LTN
Programs: Aeroflot Bonus, British Airways Executive Club
Posts: 463
CAN is strong in domestic market, but far worse than HKG in international market.
As a citizen in Hong Kong, I always consider SZX as an alternative to HKG, especially when flying to mainland destinations, and in circumstances where CAN has direct flight but not HKG and SZX, CAN as well, e.g. to CAI in the past (there is now a direct HKG-CAI flight now, but it has a stop in BKK)
Last year when I needed to go to Klaipeda (served by PLQ airport) in Lithuania my first instinct was to get to KGD as there is no viable connection from my place to PLQ, but good cheap Aeroflot flight to KGD.
An international border really doesn't matter much for a good airport nearby.
Mar 16, 2019, 7:19 am
#1234
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,167
OK, so this horse still twitches a bit, and I am right here with a hammer! 
Easily said, when you are holding a HKG passport.
But the main issue is not HKG immigrations, even if the lines are huge for foreigners. The issue is primarily that AY is an airline with a very specific strategy.- to serve underserved Chinese cities with direct flights, making a large number of PRC-EU routes quick and smooth. So why not in CAN?
Respectfully I ask, did you do what you suggest? Have you ever flown a longhaul into HKG, with the only purpose of transferring to CAN? With bags and all? Was it a smooth experience?
I have on a number of occasions and tried all the different transfer options and there is no way any of the options can be called smooth and quick.
I, and the three other people I book on this route regularly, have had it with this very complicated transfer and thus with Finnair. They even say "I'd rather forfeit my Finnair upgrade vouchers and fly in economy on another airline, as long as I can fly directly to CAN."
That is not about HKG per se, it is about collecting bags at HKG, move them to Airport express, move them to shuttle bus to Hung Hom, pay for them to be carried on the train, exit SAR, enter PRC, collect bags again, arrange for transport to final destination.
You can replace Hung Hom with High speed train, boat, or the HKG-SZX-CAN bus above, they all are similar or worse.
Isn't the ROC is a special case?
Firstly, there is something like 20+ daily departures HKG-TPE and far far less flights TPE-CAN. That means some travellers are forced to do the HKG detour because of availability and schedules, not because they prefer taking the detour.
Secondly, a number of people need to go via HKG anyway either for business or because that allows them to switch passport mid-ways. PRC citizens obtain a second passport to be used for ROC entry only, you know.
And that there is exactly iwhy Finnair should serve CAN at least daily, year round.
a) it is apparently underserved for international routes, so a new frequency meets less competition
b) it is strong in domestic market making it a much better hub for PRC than HKG is.
But the main issue is not HKG immigrations, even if the lines are huge for foreigners. The issue is primarily that AY is an airline with a very specific strategy.- to serve underserved Chinese cities with direct flights, making a large number of PRC-EU routes quick and smooth. So why not in CAN?
Respectfully I ask, did you do what you suggest? Have you ever flown a longhaul into HKG, with the only purpose of transferring to CAN? With bags and all? Was it a smooth experience?
I have on a number of occasions and tried all the different transfer options and there is no way any of the options can be called smooth and quick.
I, and the three other people I book on this route regularly, have had it with this very complicated transfer and thus with Finnair. They even say "I'd rather forfeit my Finnair upgrade vouchers and fly in economy on another airline, as long as I can fly directly to CAN."
That is not about HKG per se, it is about collecting bags at HKG, move them to Airport express, move them to shuttle bus to Hung Hom, pay for them to be carried on the train, exit SAR, enter PRC, collect bags again, arrange for transport to final destination.
You can replace Hung Hom with High speed train, boat, or the HKG-SZX-CAN bus above, they all are similar or worse.
Firstly, there is something like 20+ daily departures HKG-TPE and far far less flights TPE-CAN. That means some travellers are forced to do the HKG detour because of availability and schedules, not because they prefer taking the detour.
Secondly, a number of people need to go via HKG anyway either for business or because that allows them to switch passport mid-ways. PRC citizens obtain a second passport to be used for ROC entry only, you know.
a) it is apparently underserved for international routes, so a new frequency meets less competition
b) it is strong in domestic market making it a much better hub for PRC than HKG is.
Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 am
#1235
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: BGO (Temporarily HEL)
Programs: AY+ Gold, SK EBG
Posts: 400
Just want to add that while going through international border might be seen as okay when getting to airport/destination for some, for us being spoiled from being based in EU/Schengen, I suppose we have different standards.
Mar 17, 2019, 11:40 pm
#1236
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LTN
Programs: Aeroflot Bonus, British Airways Executive Club
Posts: 463
OK, so this horse still twitches a bit, and I am right here with a hammer!
Easily said, when you are holding a HKG passport.
But the main issue is not HKG immigrations, even if the lines are huge for foreigners. The issue is primarily that AY is an airline with a very specific strategy.- to serve underserved Chinese cities with direct flights, making a large number of PRC-EU routes quick and smooth. So why not in CAN?
Respectfully I ask, did you do what you suggest? Have you ever flown a longhaul into HKG, with the only purpose of transferring to CAN? With bags and all? Was it a smooth experience?
I have on a number of occasions and tried all the different transfer options and there is no way any of the options can be called smooth and quick.
Easily said, when you are holding a HKG passport.
But the main issue is not HKG immigrations, even if the lines are huge for foreigners. The issue is primarily that AY is an airline with a very specific strategy.- to serve underserved Chinese cities with direct flights, making a large number of PRC-EU routes quick and smooth. So why not in CAN?
Respectfully I ask, did you do what you suggest? Have you ever flown a longhaul into HKG, with the only purpose of transferring to CAN? With bags and all? Was it a smooth experience?
I have on a number of occasions and tried all the different transfer options and there is no way any of the options can be called smooth and quick.
Strength of AY:
- Well-timed connecting KA flight from HKG to XMN
- Premium economy on return
- Daytime outgoing flight
- 150% frequent flyer miles
I, and the three other people I book on this route regularly, have had it with this very complicated transfer and thus with Finnair. They even say "I'd rather forfeit my Finnair upgrade vouchers and fly in economy on another airline, as long as I can fly directly to CAN."
That is not about HKG per se, it is about collecting bags at HKG, move them to Airport express, move them to shuttle bus to Hung Hom, pay for them to be carried on the train, exit SAR, enter PRC, collect bags again, arrange for transport to final destination.
You can replace Hung Hom with High speed train, boat, or the HKG-SZX-CAN bus above, they all are similar or worse.
That is not about HKG per se, it is about collecting bags at HKG, move them to Airport express, move them to shuttle bus to Hung Hom, pay for them to be carried on the train, exit SAR, enter PRC, collect bags again, arrange for transport to final destination.
You can replace Hung Hom with High speed train, boat, or the HKG-SZX-CAN bus above, they all are similar or worse.
Isn't the ROC is a special case?
Firstly, there is something like 20+ daily departures HKG-TPE and far far less flights TPE-CAN. That means some travellers are forced to do the HKG detour because of availability and schedules, not because they prefer taking the detour.
Secondly, a number of people need to go via HKG anyway either for business or because that allows them to switch passport mid-ways. PRC citizens obtain a second passport to be used for ROC entry only, you know.
And that there is exactly iwhy Finnair should serve CAN at least daily, year round.
a) it is apparently underserved for international routes, so a new frequency meets less competition
b) it is strong in domestic market making it a much better hub for PRC than HKG is.
Firstly, there is something like 20+ daily departures HKG-TPE and far far less flights TPE-CAN. That means some travellers are forced to do the HKG detour because of availability and schedules, not because they prefer taking the detour.
Secondly, a number of people need to go via HKG anyway either for business or because that allows them to switch passport mid-ways. PRC citizens obtain a second passport to be used for ROC entry only, you know.
And that there is exactly iwhy Finnair should serve CAN at least daily, year round.
a) it is apparently underserved for international routes, so a new frequency meets less competition
b) it is strong in domestic market making it a much better hub for PRC than HKG is.
AY is different because it is in oneworld so weak in mainland China - there is no connecting partner to support the mainland market, and people fly KA to Hong Kong to connect.
Last edited by miklcct; Mar 17, 2019 at 11:45 pm
Mar 18, 2019, 12:23 am
#1237
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: HEL
Programs: BA Gold, OZ Diamond, LH Silver
Posts: 553
At the end of this month, AF is ending their 5/w flight CDG-CAN flight as well. So there is something about CAN that makes it a difficult destination for European carriers. Only AY (seasonal), SU and TK remain, all of which also fly to HKG. Interestingly, from Africa CAN has service by ET, KQ and MS while only ET and MS serve HKG (both 1-stop in BKK).
I would guess European demand is more concentrated around HKG as it is a superior entry point (compared to CAN) to HKG itself, Shenzhen, Macau and Zhuhai. Having just travelled to Zhuhai by flying to HKG I must say that the new HZMB bridge makes it super easy to travel from HKG airport also eastwards. And the hugely growing city of Shenzhen is also quite easily accessible from HKG.
All in all in my opinion CAN airport best serves traffic to Guangzhou metropolitan area while HKG airport best serves traffic to the rest of the Pearl River Delta and for some, even Guangzhou. So traffic is leaking to HKG from Guangzhou but not much the other way.
I would guess European demand is more concentrated around HKG as it is a superior entry point (compared to CAN) to HKG itself, Shenzhen, Macau and Zhuhai. Having just travelled to Zhuhai by flying to HKG I must say that the new HZMB bridge makes it super easy to travel from HKG airport also eastwards. And the hugely growing city of Shenzhen is also quite easily accessible from HKG.
All in all in my opinion CAN airport best serves traffic to Guangzhou metropolitan area while HKG airport best serves traffic to the rest of the Pearl River Delta and for some, even Guangzhou. So traffic is leaking to HKG from Guangzhou but not much the other way.
Mar 18, 2019, 9:46 am
#1238
Join Date: May 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+Plat, ALL Plat, Scandic L2
Posts: 3,620
I assume CZ still operates the route, and it might be hard for AF to compete if they're no longer friends.
Mar 18, 2019, 12:17 pm
#1239
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: HEL
Programs: lots of shiny metal cards
Posts: 14,104
My 2¢ - I often go to China on TWOV, so I need to enter and exit by air (I know there are a few exception to this) AND may not return to the same country as I arrived from. So HEL-CAN-HKG-HEL would be OK but HEL-HKG-CAN-HKG-HEL is no-no. So e.g. if the outbound is HEL-HKG-CAN, coming back I need to fly to e.g. BKK and from there home.
Mar 18, 2019, 1:26 pm
#1240
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,167
...
As the high-speed rail opens Sep last year, the connection is now very easy - A direct motorway bus A22 now carries you from the airport to the entrance of high speed train station in half an hour, and within another hour you are already at the edge of Guangzhou.
....
As the high-speed rail opens Sep last year, the connection is now very easy - A direct motorway bus A22 now carries you from the airport to the entrance of high speed train station in half an hour, and within another hour you are already at the edge of Guangzhou.
....
While I did not know about A22 (and the A22 I know of does not go to West Kowlon station - I believe A10 does and takes 43 minutes) it doesn't change much.
From the rosy wording, I'm even wondering if you did this transfer at all?
a) the direct HKG-CAN is indeed only 47 minutes travel time, but there are only 2 such a day ( at 10.00 and at 15.00, ie not fitting AY arrivals at all. ) The majority of high-speed trains are "local" and stops multiple times, making the ride up to 1h 15 minutes.
b) you need to be at West kowloon station at least 1h before departure, to meet cut-off time and all the formalities
c) High speed train does not allow any checked luggage, making it a no-go in many situations
Getting to the edge of Guangzhou in 1,5 hour via this route is quite frankly impossible.
This makes sense to me. On my first int-to-int transfer in CAN I was asking my self "where did all francophone come from" and the realised that AF/KL was a major feeder to CZ.
Mar 18, 2019, 3:56 pm
#1241
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LTN
Programs: Aeroflot Bonus, British Airways Executive Club
Posts: 463
Like I said, I've done all the transfer options and none are good. I' will try to not repeat myself too much. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30788365-post34.html
While I did not know about A22 (and the A22 I know of does not go to West Kowlon station - I believe A10 does and takes 43 minutes) it doesn't change much.
From the rosy wording, I'm even wondering if you did this transfer at all?
a) the direct HKG-CAN is indeed only 47 minutes travel time, but there are only 2 such a day ( at 10.00 and at 15.00, ie not fitting AY arrivals at all. ) The majority of high-speed trains are "local" and stops multiple times, making the ride up to 1h 15 minutes.
b) you need to be at West kowloon station at least 1h before departure, to meet cut-off time and all the formalities
c) High speed train does not allow any checked luggage, making it a no-go in many situations
Getting to the edge of Guangzhou in 1,5 hour via this route is quite frankly impossible.
This makes sense to me. On my first int-to-int transfer in CAN I was asking my self "where did all francophone come from" and the realised that AF/KL was a major feeder to CZ.
While I did not know about A22 (and the A22 I know of does not go to West Kowlon station - I believe A10 does and takes 43 minutes) it doesn't change much.
From the rosy wording, I'm even wondering if you did this transfer at all?
a) the direct HKG-CAN is indeed only 47 minutes travel time, but there are only 2 such a day ( at 10.00 and at 15.00, ie not fitting AY arrivals at all. ) The majority of high-speed trains are "local" and stops multiple times, making the ride up to 1h 15 minutes.
b) you need to be at West kowloon station at least 1h before departure, to meet cut-off time and all the formalities
c) High speed train does not allow any checked luggage, making it a no-go in many situations
Getting to the edge of Guangzhou in 1,5 hour via this route is quite frankly impossible.
This makes sense to me. On my first int-to-int transfer in CAN I was asking my self "where did all francophone come from" and the realised that AF/KL was a major feeder to CZ.
Note that this is only convenient to Chinese citizens (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) since we are possible to use the automatic ticket collection machine. Otherwise if you buy ticket at counter you can only buy tickets 30 minutes later (45 advertised, but unofficially 30).
Bus A22 does indeed stop directly at the entrance of train station (called Austin Station) since October, just after the expressway and more convenient than the airport express because the bus company added a stop there.
Mar 19, 2019, 10:43 am
#1242
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,601
Trondheim and Tromsø
Finnair starts a route to Trondheim (5 times aweek op by Widerøe) and increases the frequency to Tromsø (up to thrice aweek also operates by Widerøe). Flybe used to fly to Trondheim using ATRs for a short while. I don’t know about the timetables or if the routes are seasonal.
I wonder why not to Stavanger for Norwegian customers. Bergen and the new destinations are obviously mainly directed to the Asian clientele.
I wonder why not to Stavanger for Norwegian customers. Bergen and the new destinations are obviously mainly directed to the Asian clientele.
Mar 19, 2019, 10:56 am
#1243
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: BGO (Temporarily HEL)
Programs: AY+ Gold, SK EBG
Posts: 400
Finnair starts a route to Trondheim (5 times aweek op by Widerøe) and increases the frequency to Tromsø (up to thrice aweek also operates by Widerøe). Flybe used to fly to Trondheim using ATRs for a short while. I don’t know about the timetables or if the routes are seasonal.
I wonder why not to Stavanger for Norwegian customers. Bergen and the new destinations are obviously mainly directed to the Asian clientele.
I wonder why not to Stavanger for Norwegian customers. Bergen and the new destinations are obviously mainly directed to the Asian clientele.
https://www.ntbinfo.no/pressemelding/finnair-apner-direkterute-fra-trondheim?publisherId=17421123&releaseId=17862071 Norwegian language article if anyone is interested.
TOS frequency increase and new TRD route is definitely for Asian pax, but also very nice for Norwegian pax interested in Asia, since SK still doesn't have a single flight to East Asia ex-Norway. If prices are not too restrictive, TRD pax might as well fly directly to HEL and use AY while SK still requires Norwegian pax to fly to CPH/ARN (with possible transfer in OSL first!) to get to Asia. Ex-SVG business traffic is mostly related to oil and maritime, so can't see a lot of demand for HEL route there, but still good potential for Asian pax with Preikestolen. However SVG is closer to already served destinations like BGO, OSL and CPH, which might be why AY focuses on TOS and TRD first.
EDIT: TRD-HEL:
Monday, wednesday, thursday, friday and sunday: 11:40 (lands 14:30)
HEL-TRD:
Same days: 15:30 (lands 16:20).
Route starts June 3rd, equipment is WF Dash-8 Q400.
TOS-HEL:
Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday: 11:30 (lands 14:25)
HEL-TOS:
Same days: 15:40 (lands 16:35)
Additional frequencies start June 4th, equipment is WF Embraer E190-E2.
Last edited by Superrman; Mar 19, 2019 at 11:19 am
Mar 22, 2019, 10:04 am
#1245
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,737
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...-in-june-2019/
Also, CZ is one step closer to OW now that you can earn and redeem AA miles on CZ flights.