Im a new user

I'd argue like this...

If you booked your flight before the closure of the airspace, then the delay is caused by something exceptional. AY has had plenty of time to rebook passengers, and depending on what alternative flights there are available, AY might or might not have take all reasonable measures to avoid the delay, so compensation could still be due.

If you booked your flight after the closure of the airspace, then it is not something exceptional unless you have reasonable reasons to believe that the airspace will reopen before the flight's departure. Instead, it is bad planning if AY doesn't publish accurate timetables.

I think I read somewhere (BA forum?) that Pakistan extends the closure one day at a time with very short notification, so AY would probably argue that they had reasonable reasons to expect that the airspace would reopen. I'd say that this argument loses its credibility after the problem has been going on for a while.,

Unfortunately, it is unclear how a court would argue about this.

Ed Size

Yep, but I have the gut feeling that a german court could judge in favour of the traveller. In my case it was really bad luck, since our flight was one of the most delayed in the last weeks. We where at the gate (doors not open) a 17:12 with a flying time of 11h14min. Most other delayed flights arrived at around 16:00 with flying times well under 11h

quinzinho

My previous flight with AY was also badly delayed. I used a claim agency, who after a while gave AY final warning before they'd go to court and then I got the money.
So, I know which way to go

I think in this case it's really better for both parties to rebook and I wouldn't think about the EU261 route if they'd be supportive, but alas...

Ed Size

I doubt that a claim agency will help here - since this one means some real work (what they are generally avoid).

Often1

The air space is closed on a day-by-day basis (sometimes a few at a time). It is closed by government order. Anybody who suggests that they can peer into the minds of Pakistani authorities as to how they will handle this issue tomorrow or the day after, will have solved one of the most vexing international affairs issues since the 1940's.

The EC 261/2004 argument falls afoul of the above. Furthermore, there are no other great options as, on any given day, the limited available routings may be more or less efficient and one takes what one can get.

It is also worth noting that there is no precential authority for the proposition that a carrier must rebook on another carrier's flights.

Ed Size

Hm is this a fact or something you learned from Flyertalk and/or media?

ffay005

The flight that's most affected is AY121/122 to/from DEL. Flight times are about 2 hours longer each way than usual. Does anyone here have any recent experience whether they've updated the catering to reflect the longer flying times?

Right now, the planned opening date is April 24. Remains to be seen whether the closure is further extended.

oliver2002

The airspace has been opened a bit and the southern PK airspace is no open for transit which significantly helped the S.E. Asia - Europe traffic. Airlines are not changing the schedules because they will otherwise lose their slots enroute. EU261 comp doesn't apply at all.

ffay005

This is my understanding and interpretation as well. This very much falls into the category of extraordinary circumstances and AY has no say in this – if they had, I'm sure they'd fly the shorter route starting immediately as they're losing a lot of money with all these detours in place.

However, for those losing connections, AY is still responsible for food, drinks, communications and accommodation even if no set cash compensation is due.

Ed Size

The question is, are circumstances extraordinary if they last for a few months. If Pakistan makes the decision on a daily basis I agree, if Pakistan anounce this for a period over a longer period I doubt it. Especially I doubt if they know about the delays at the time of the booking, there are no extraordinary circumstances - at the time of the purchase.

And it just don t matter what anyone of us think about it, only a judge can answer that question, and most likely no one will go that way, since there is a certain risk in it.

intuition

This is a good and interesting question.

I'm thinking 'extraodinary' require the event to be both sudden and unexpected, but IANAL.

Im a new user

I'd have thought that it is an extraordinary circumstance if the airspace suddenly is reopened so that flights suddenly start arriving earlier than they currently do...

ffay005

If they had announced a six-month closure, for instance, then of course after a certain "sudden and unexpected" period, airlines could and would have altered their schedules and rebooked accordingly. The problem is that as far as I know, Pakistan keeps extending the closure every few days, and only for a couple of days at a time, so no airline will change their schedules semi-permanently and add 1-2 hours extra when you never know how long this circumstance is in place.

Trav1970

They may not change the schedule, but couldn't they change the MCT temporarily to force passengers to pick connections that might actually work?

ffay005

But for how long should such a temporary MCT be in force? Pakistan has announced that the closure lasts until 23 April. A day or two before that, they might extend it, or they might not. Nobody knows, which is the core of all the problems here.

A reasonable thing for AY to do would be to allow customers to make changes 48 hours before departure. That's a relatively small window. It would be helpful for pax (at least the pax in the know) but wouldn't be too costly for AY.