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Old Jan 7, 2019, 10:57 am
  #31  
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Some other small things from Air China

Amenity from l'occitane. It had a few more items than Finnair. One notable difference was that there was a blindfold that was 100% opaque. One of my pet peeve on AY - blindfold in thin grey cloth where a lot of light seeps through.

Now, CA achieved this 100% darkness by making the blindfold in 100% plastic (!) So I also learned that you can sweat from your eye-lids!






"To satisfy and please every serious customer ..."


Drinkable but not really leaving any lasting impression.
On longhauls there was "Drappier Carte d'Or Brut" on offer.


On the PEK-HKG (less than 3h) there also was full meal service (no pics). Wide-body and business cabin was same 2+2+2 seating, but no minicabin. Almost full, and 90% was what could be called yuppies. A lot of young couples, late 20's or early 30's going to HKG for partying and shopping. Many expensive attributes, for example I saw an ipad pro for the first time in my life. (And it was not in pro usage mind you)

Behind me was a young mother with an infant. I smiled at them but was told discretely to not engage them as "they clearly were highly connected in the party".


The return saw an EQ swap, down-grade to A321. Meal service a typical AY tray-meal, but do note everything is on china and of course no lids on...



Salad was chicken (I think) and beans, tasty. Main was "Western option" fish/penne. Sauce was tasty but fish was cold inside so I left that untouched. Garlic bread and champers helped me thorugh the 2,5h flight



On the PEK-CPH, which is a 2:55 am departure, I slept like a rock in the 178° flat beds. Skipping the midnight light meal.

They did take pre-orders for everyone at boarding, asking preferred service time and meal selection. I opted for western breakfast. After the full round they returned and asked my mandarin speaking seat mate if he could ask me to accept Chinese option instead, as they may run out. Slightly odd request and clearly status is not used as pecking order for meal selection. I accepted (as I though I may or may not sleep through breakfast anyway)

Woke up for breakfast, which was super early (something like 2:20 before landing). Got the Chinese option and was kindly asked to try it out, and if I didn't like it they would try to get me something else (unclear what that would have been, perhaps Western option from Y? Or scraps ;-)

One notable thing was Coffee. IIRC menu said normal black coffee would be "ground" ie from beans. Unclear if so, but it was pretty OK. Hot and tasty. Hot milk served in small personal jug. I was pleasantly surprised, didn't even know they could heat the milk but it seemed to be standard option.





Lastly, the joy of flying older A330, which make me feel like I was flying Finnair!



(BTW, do note the sticker they put on people sleeping during normal service round.)
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Old Feb 16, 2019, 1:26 pm
  #32  
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QR it starting to recieve A321LR next year. With 7000 km range, I guess they can have their own Asian strategy, being able to connect any Chinese city with any African and European city, even if the routes are very thin.


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Old Feb 17, 2019, 2:30 am
  #33  
 
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I fly a lot between HEL and CAN, with AY. Though the only-summer schedule by AY was quite frustrating, the now opened high speed railway HKG-CAN really save the day, I have done it three times. (All reaching CAN downtown by noon)

time break down,

morng arrival 9am HKG,

HKG airport to West Kowloon railway station by metro(HK) airport express, 24mins

West KL(HK) to CAN(south) by highspeed railway, max 60mins, departure every 30mims or so.Fastest one is a no-stop-47mins reaching CAN (10am everyday, given AY arrival in HKG and transfer in Metro, not likely but doable if you are lucky, becoz u need 30mins spare time doing cross border passport contro only one-time in West Kowloon HK to enter mainland China)

Reach CAN(south) before noon anyhow.
CAN(south) is suburban region of CAN, going to CAN business center by metro or taxi, depends where you go, max can be 1hr though.

The whole journey reaching downtowm is less than 13hr, maximum. And the high speed railway is also pleasant.

(Remind you if you fly to CAN by CA or CX via stops, let say, min 14.5hrs not considering delay time inside China, which is quite common, the airport of CAN is in CAN(north), from there to CAN downtown also takes 40mins, def more than 15.5hrs in the outmost optimal scenario, and usually can be way longer. In this sense, high speed railway is so much punctual than air flight)
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Old Feb 17, 2019, 5:02 am
  #34  
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Originally Posted by cantongirl
I fly a lot between HEL and CAN, with AY. Though the only-summer schedule by AY was quite frustrating, the now opened high speed railway HKG-CAN really save the day, I have done it three times. (All reaching CAN downtown by noon)

time break down,

morng arrival 9am HKG,

HKG airport to West Kowloon railway station by metro(HK) airport express, 24mins

West KL(HK) to CAN(south) by highspeed railway, max 60mins, departure every 30mims or so.Fastest one is a no-stop-47mins reaching CAN (10am everyday, given AY arrival in HKG and transfer in Metro, not likely but doable if you are lucky, becoz u need 30mins spare time doing cross border passport contro only one-time in West Kowloon HK to enter mainland China)

Reach CAN(south) before noon anyhow.
CAN(south) is suburban region of CAN, going to CAN business center by metro or taxi, depends where you go, max can be 1hr though.

The whole journey reaching downtowm is less than 13hr, maximum. And the high speed railway is also pleasant.

(Remind you if you fly to CAN by CA or CX via stops, let say, min 14.5hrs not considering delay time inside China, which is quite common, the airport of CAN is in CAN(north), from there to CAN downtown also takes 40mins, def more than 15.5hrs in the outmost optimal scenario, and usually can be way longer. In this sense, high speed railway is so much punctual than air flight)
I did this transfer for the first time last week, and while I agre it is better than a Hung Hom transfer, it is in no way a proper replacement for a daily/year-around direct to CAN.

I assume the transfer time can be kept to a minimum when one knows the transfer well, but in my first time I had scheduled a 3h 35 min gap and it was just slightly pessimistic. I don't think anything less than 2,5 hours would be prudent.

The high speed rail has its advantages, but has some real disadvatages too.

a) Does not allow check in bags (like the slow rail does). You can have bags transported for you by a third party at Kowloon west, but bags will not arrive even the same day in CAN!
b) Max carry on allowance is 1PC at max size (w+h+l) 130 cm and 20kg
c) If you don't hold PRC passport or HK id card, you need to personally collect ticket 45 minutes prior to departure
d) If you miss this deadline , your ticket is gone and you need to buy a new one. Ticket change is only allowed 60 minutes before departure. So "being lucky" and opting for a earlier train can be expensive.
e) Transfer time is therefore considerable. Allow for delay of incoming flight, bag collection, Airport express travel time, a walk from Kowloon to Kowloon west station, ticket pick up deadline, security check, HK immigrations, CN immigrations and CN customs. I'd say no less than 2,5 hours for the transfer.
f) it is some effort involved in the transfer if you carry a bag, as bag must be carried through several doorways, up/down several elevators, through several scanners.



If Guangzhounan (south) is better than arriving at airport is probably in the eye of the beholder. Guangzhounan har the advantage of being on a metro-line but is pretty far out. Guangzhou east (Hung Hom transfer) is likely the best arrival site of these three, if going down town.



If travelling alone and with a cabin-sized carry on, then I probably would consider the high speed rail as an viable option.
But if I have bags, or travelling with a entourage that needs some assistance, I would most certainly not consider it. I would make any effort to go directly to CAN instead. If that can't be done, I would transfer onto CX/KA and just sit the hours out in the lounge.
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Old Mar 18, 2019, 4:23 pm
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Originally Posted by intuition
I did this transfer for the first time last week, and while I agre it is better than a Hung Hom transfer, it is in no way a proper replacement for a daily/year-around direct to CAN.

I assume the transfer time can be kept to a minimum when one knows the transfer well, but in my first time I had scheduled a 3h 35 min gap and it was just slightly pessimistic. I don't think anything less than 2,5 hours would be prudent.

The high speed rail has its advantages, but has some real disadvatages too.

a) Does not allow check in bags (like the slow rail does). You can have bags transported for you by a third party at Kowloon west, but bags will not arrive even the same day in CAN!
b) Max carry on allowance is 1PC at max size (w+h+l) 130 cm and 20kg
c) If you don't hold PRC passport or HK id card, you need to personally collect ticket 45 minutes prior to departure
d) If you miss this deadline , your ticket is gone and you need to buy a new one. Ticket change is only allowed 60 minutes before departure. So "being lucky" and opting for a earlier train can be expensive.
e) Transfer time is therefore considerable. Allow for delay of incoming flight, bag collection, Airport express travel time, a walk from Kowloon to Kowloon west station, ticket pick up deadline, security check, HK immigrations, CN immigrations and CN customs. I'd say no less than 2,5 hours for the transfer.
f) it is some effort involved in the transfer if you carry a bag, as bag must be carried through several doorways, up/down several elevators, through several scanners.



If Guangzhounan (south) is better than arriving at airport is probably in the eye of the beholder. Guangzhounan har the advantage of being on a metro-line but is pretty far out. Guangzhou east (Hung Hom transfer) is likely the best arrival site of these three, if going down town.



If travelling alone and with a cabin-sized carry on, then I probably would consider the high speed rail as an viable option.
But if I have bags, or travelling with a entourage that needs some assistance, I would most certainly not consider it. I would make any effort to go directly to CAN instead. If that can't be done, I would transfer onto CX/KA and just sit the hours out in the lounge.
Well, maybe I can explain more in this thread instead, and not flood the frequency thread anymore:

The most convenient way, apart from direct flight, would definitely be on a KA feeder, but unfortunately the time does not match.

The second convenient option would be ferry to Guangzhou Lian Hua Shan at 10:30, good time for AY101, and only get on land there.

Other options include the old thru train which get you directly to the city centre, but the problem is the A21 bus is so damn slow, and the train isn't fast either.

Another old option is to go to Shenzhen to take the semi high speed train to Guangzhou East, by means of A43 bus and a metro between, bit this route is usually crowded since it pass thru the busiest border in the world.

The new HSR brings you to Guangzhou South but it is only convenient for Chinese Citizens because of the Chinese mentality - Chinese citizens can use the automatic ticket collection machine from 12306 (mainland ticketing system) which doesn't have a time limit, and the 12306 ticketing deadline on mobile is 30 minutes, giving us a reasonable time to buy the ticket on phone while riding the bus to train station. Those ticket collection machines do not read foreign passports.

Note that since the opening in September, many had changed due to chaos and dissatisfaction from people:

The ticketing deadline at counter is now 30 instead of 45 minutes unofficially.

Some 12306 collection machines have been shipped from Shenzhen because they are expected by mainland passengers, while initially there were none and the 12306 ticketing counters could not handle the vast amount of passengers, causing operation problems.

The A22 bus is now preferred to the Airport Express to the train station because it stops directly at the train station entrance, while you need to walk about 10 minutes from AE station to train station. Note that metro Austin Station is directly connected to the HSR station, you can treat them as the same, better than Hong Kong / Central transfer.
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 3:58 am
  #36  
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The latest issue of "Airline leader" talks about Chinese carriers' growth in China-Europe traffic. Now 29 Chinese carriers are operation on Europe, and 33% of all seat capacity in this market is offered by just three of them.

Chinese carriers flew 75 million pax on international routes in 2018. IIRC, Finnair flew a bit over 2 million pax on its entire Asia network.
Chinese carriers flew on 91 routes China-Europe 2018. Finnair flew on...



https://centreforaviation.com/analys...irlines-470257
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Old May 2, 2019, 4:29 am
  #37  
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Sorry I don't get the excitement over the CA business product in this thread. CA routinely (or rather semi-permanently) offers 1500-2000€ fares ex Europe to China/SE Asia/E Asia and Australia, similar to TG and AI. These book into CA R, which only earns 100% on most *A FFP. The service is not stellar and roughly on par with AI & TG, plus the EU schedules are really not in tune with their regional schedule, which means you often have long layovers in PEK. So your get a decent fare which reflects the product/experience delivered.
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Old May 2, 2019, 11:49 am
  #38  
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Originally Posted by oliver2002
Sorry I don't get the excitement over the CA business product in this thread.
...
So your get a decent fare which reflects the product/experience delivered.
Not sure if that was in reference to me talking, but I do not mean to rave about CA product per se. I agree, the CA product is behind AY and thus needs to be discounted to be of interest. But what I did try to say about CA, in relation to AY and the Asian strategy, based on flying ex-CPH to mainly CAN and HKG is:



* The CA fares should be compared to AY regular ≈2750€ fare, ie almost twice the CA fare ≈1500€. The CA product is in no way just half as good as AY, so the Quality/€ ratio is higher for CA.

* I do earn 125% of miles on R fare to my *A program. Which is exactly how any non-AY OW flight would earn to AY+. (Do note that a international business fare on CA with a domestic Chinese leg books into F on domestic with better earnings. OTOH, R fare only earns 125% to PhoenixMiles so that is worse than AY+)

* As a Westerner I too react at the non-stellar service, et.c. but I've travelled with Chinese pax who said "This is superior, you just don't get this kind of service on Finnair". I assume language and culturally based expectations makes all the difference. This has bearing especially on the Asian strategy, in the part where AY wants to attract Chinese passengers

* Flight time CPH-PEK-CAN is 14:40 on CA while CPH-HEL-CAN is 12:15 on AY, of which 1:10 is due to longer layover (HEL 1:10 layover, PEK 2:20 layover). So yes, it is a longer travel time, but not markedly so. I am sure there are worse connections for some domestic destinations, but a 2:20 layover is not a very long one and unlikely to affect choices. And hey, Finnair doesn't even serve more than a handfull destinations - even a long layover is better than a non-existing connection.



So for me as a westerner, CA is fit for purpose with at quality/€ that beats AY. Albeit a small sample, it seems that Chinese travellers would prefer CA over AY even without the price difference.

One part of Finnair strategy in China is to establish a route early and commit to it, in order to gain local appreciation of Finnair believing in the city, and later on harvest on that feel. That reasoning is not wrong in itself, but it seems they are being out-paced by domestic airlines.
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Old May 3, 2019, 12:18 am
  #39  
 
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I can't see how that EUR1,500 fare is profitable for any airline. How are AY expected to compete with that?
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Old May 3, 2019, 3:43 am
  #40  
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AY permanently offers 1800€ fares to the E Asian destinations for business travel from W. Europe. The unit costs to produce this is most certainly there. They make their money off local pax that pay double to fly direct, this is no different from BA/AF-KL/LH.
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Old May 3, 2019, 4:05 am
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Originally Posted by nanyang
I can't see how that EUR1,500 fare is profitable for any airline. How are AY expected to compete with that?

I would say the costs of a J ticket to Asia is below that (for AY) since AY offers frequently cooporate fares below that - also most other european airlines (even Lufthansa) are able to do offers in that region. Money comes in when people pay >2000€ fares.

Also AY has no problem with upgrading lots of pax into business class on certain routes, so they even see this as a profitable solution.
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Old May 3, 2019, 6:16 am
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1Q 2019 CASK was EURc6.46
https://investors.finnair.com/~/medi...-report-en.pdf

CPH-HEL is 891km
HEL-HKG is 7,821km

--> so that gives EUR1,126 as the cost of producing an average seat CPH-HKG return

Missing pieces:
- Cost of J product vs. average CASK
- Stage length adjustment
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Old May 9, 2019, 5:28 am
  #43  
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AY to CN seems to be going strong:


CAN goes year round:
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Old May 15, 2019, 9:34 am
  #44  
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AY Business special to China for ~1600€ ex Germany: https://www.finnair.com/de/de/summer-offers
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Old May 16, 2019, 5:32 am
  #45  
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https://company.finnair.com/en/media...ews?id=3304444

Finnair and the Shanghai-based Juneyao Air have agreed on a new codeshare cooperation on the route operated by Juneyao Air and Finnair between Helsinki and Shanghai Pudong International Airport (PVG), as well as on selected Juneyao routes in China and selected Finnair routes in Finland. The new codeshare agreement adds eight new destinations to Finnair’s network in China.

From 28 June, 2019 onwards Finnair customers can connect with Juneyao Air from Shanghai to Harbin, Shenyang, Dalian, Qingdao, XiŽan, Chongqing, Kunming, Xiamen and Fuzhou. In addition, the Finnair code will be added on Juneyao Air routes between Nanjing and XiŽan, Chongqing and Zhangjiajie. At the same time, Juneyao Air code will be added to FinnairŽs route between Shanghai and Helsinki, and to Finnair’s domestic routes from Helsinki to Ivalo, Rovaniemi, Kemi, Kuopio and Oulu. The Finnish Lapland has become a popular destination for Chinese tourists.


These new codeshare flights can be booked from 16 May, 2019.


“We warmly welcome this cooperation with Juneyao Air and are delighted to offer our customers more destinations and smooth connections in China”, says Mr Christian Lesjak, Senior Vice President, Network and resource management at Finnair. ”During summer 2019, we operate up to 42 weekly flights between Greater China and Helsinki, including daily flights to Shanghai. We welcome Juneyao customers to explore Finland.”

“By connecting Juneyao Air and Finnair networks, we can offer more choices, enabling easy connection and communication between China and Europe via Finland. We believe the codeshare partnership between Juneyao Air and Finnair will be a win-win collaboration”, says Mr Yu Chengji, Executive Vice President of Juneyao Air.

About Juneyao Air

Juneyao Air CO., LTD., is one of the leading private-owned carriers in the Chinese mainland. Founded in September 2006, the carrier now owns 72 aircrafts, consisting of Airbus A320 series jets and Boeing 787 Dreamliners. Being “the friendly air travel experience provider”, Juneyao Air operates more than 120 routes linking major cities in China as well as neighboring countries with its major base in Shanghai and Nanjing. In 2018 Juneyao Air has carried over 18 million passengers.

Juneyao Air has become the first Star Alliance Connecting Partner in May 2017 and has started FFP cooperation with Star Alliance members Air China, Air Canada, ANA, EVA Air, Singapore Airlines, United and Shenzhen Airlines.

Guided by the High Value Carrier (HVC) strategy and the brand promise “Warm Journey Beyond Imagination”, Juneyao Air is striving to become one of the top carriers in the region and will create a better travel experience and value to all passengers, making every journey a dream come true.
(my bolding)
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