nocod

Hi,

Was hoping someone here might have insights into how to deal with an EC261 claim with Finnair/Norra.

Claim
I was flying LHR-HEL-TLL, on they day of the flight they cancelled the HEL-TLL leg before I even had left LHR. Got rebooked to next morning. Delay to TLL of around 12h.

HEL-TLL was Finnair flight number, operated by Norra for Finnair.

Claimed 400e for cancellation/delay.

Finnair Response

They said pilots were ill and that is extraordinary circumstances, so claim is denied.

Excerpt from their response:
In the case of your flight , the cancellation was caused by sickness of the flight crew. There was no voluntary pilot available to fly this flight. Negotiations to get collective agreement are going on.
Because this is considered an extraordinary circumstance, no compensation will be paid.

Questions

1) Would you agree that Finnair's claim of extraordinary circumstances is very weak? How can a pilot shortage, cancelling a flight over 6h before flight time, be extraordinary.

2) How does Norra play into this? Is Finnair still responsible for claims as it was Finnair flight number, and operated by Norra for Finnair?

3) What is the best way to advance this in Finland if they refuse to pay after second claim?

Thanks!

Hartsa

At least in the case of code shares the operating airline is responsible. I once got a compensation from AF on a cancelled AY ticketed flight. AY's response to my claim was to handle the issue directly with AF which I did.

nocod

Yeah, I've understood that the operating carrier is the responsible one. However in this Nordic Regional Airlines(Norra)/Finnair setup I'm not sure how it works. Seems Norra is partly owned by Finnair. The flights only have a AY flight number, Norra doesn't have their own IATA code. However Finnair website says the flights are "Operated by Norra" but definitely doesn't look like a codeshare.

Wonder how this impacts who is responsible for handling the claim.

lkrt

I've once received an EC261 compensation from Finnair stating:
"Exceptionally we've decided to compensate this on behalf of the flight's operating carrier Norra", which sounds like you should apply for it from Norra, however I'm not sure if they'd compensate it again ("exceptionally").

The funny thing about this whole ordeal was that my flight wasn't even operated by Norra...

Fims

The Norra setup by Finnair is very easy - if flights operate as they should, then they always proudly announce them as Finnair oneworld flights, if something goes wrong, then Finnair says that call Norra for help as they did not operate the flight.... But yes, Norra does not sell any of their flights on their own, at least previously FlyBe did that. It's the same if their flights would be wetleased to be operated by Air Koryo... You would need to get your claims processed in North Korea

The main reason why they use Norra for those flights is to have different union agreement for paying for pilots and cabin crew than the mainline fleet.

nocod

It's an interesting question as the regulation mentions this:
(7) In order to ensure the effective application of this Regulation, the obligations that it creates should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.

So if an arrangement is considered a wet lease, then it would still be Finnair who is responsible. Not sure where the Norra arrangement falls exactly.

In any case, Norra says all their customer service and claims processing is actually done by Finnair.

Let's see which entity I have to take to small claims court if they don't change their mind. It would be a lot easier to do for Finnair because they have an establishment in the UK.

ff_flyer

I am not a lawyer, but EU legislation is quite clear as NoRRA is operating under their own Air Operators Certificate (AOC) issued by Finnish Transport authorities, but actual operating model with AY is somewhat obscure as already mentioned above and contradictory to EU principles. NoRRA is operating the flights with their own crew and wetleased AC's from AY but practically everything else is outsourced to AY (or other parties), including sales, ticketing, ground handling etc. Finnair is not stating the deal with NoRRA as wetlease but as a 'close co-operation', 'preferred partner' or some other creative jargon.

Norra webpage states:
"We kindly request that all questions concerning operations and flights are directed towards Finnair’s communications department through the number +358 9 818 4020 or by email [email protected]."

http://flynorra.com/actual/?lang=en

Just contact AY, but be prepared for a long processing time.
Good luck.

deissi

Finnair's case is exceptionally (sic) weak. A sick pilot is no exceptional circumstance. There are cases (although not binding precedents) where compensation has been deemed payable even in cases where a flight attendant has suddenly fallen ill at an outstation, and consequently some pax have been left behind (they need a FA for every 50 pax). Can't remember where I've seen the case(s), though.

Where are you based? You can use the EU small claims procedure in your home country if you live within the EU.

aysoo

Finnair always repsonds like that first. After your complain they will offer you a 100 oder 200 EUR Finnair voucher.
without going to court or using one of those flightright.com website, you have small changes to get the full amount. unfortunately

ffay005

OP, in your case I would file a complaint in the UK. The UK small claims procedure will force the airline to pay up whereas in Finland you can only contact the Consumer Disputes Board, which only gives out recommendations that AY doesn't necessarily follow.

I had a case similar to yours: WAW-HEL, AY op. by Norra, cancelled due to pilot shortage in early 2016. I was AY Silver and had a cheap Y ticket.

It went like this:
- I claim €250 EU compensation on the AY webpage
- they claim extraordinary circumstances and offer a €50 voucher
- I decline and file a complaint with CDB
- AY answers CDB that the request should be handled by Norra
- Norra answers CDB, (1) still claiming extraordinary circumstances, (2) backing up their claim with evidence that shows some flu statistics from the National Institute for Health and (3) also stating that they have a system of relief pilots, but they had all been assigned to other flights on that day (4) and offers a compensation of €150 as avoucher
- I answer CDB that the statistics show a more or less equal situation from year to year and that my flight was not during the peak flu season and that the relief pilot system sounds as if the real reason for the WAW cxl was commercial since they obviously decided early on, which flights to fly and which to cancel with the crew they had available that day
- Norra contacts me directly and offers a €200 voucher or €150 in cash
- I accept €200 because even if I had a good case, AY/Norra is known not to follow CDB recommendations, so a sure €200 voucher is better than an unsure €250

Not necessarily. In my case (above) I tried to negotiate with AY, explaining that the reasons they claim are by no means extraordinary, but the guy writing the emails didn't budge and after his third email, I filed a complaint with the CDB. (My suggestion was €250 voucher instead of cash.)

nocod

The problem is that UK small claims procedure can only deal with an entity that has an establishment in the UK. Finnair OYJ does, but Norra does not. Therefore going after Norra is much more difficult.

Let's see what they say after my second email. I just feel this case is so open and shut, how can they claim extraordinary circumstances in pilot shortage in their home base. At an outstation it is still questionable but in Helsinki...

intuition

Even in UK, you should be able to use the "EU Small Claims Procedure" for any business entity within EU but outside your country of residency. All EU countries must appoint a local court-system to handle this procedure for cross-border disputes below 2000€.

deissi

If you ever do end up in court, feel free to shout out in this thread for help. It will be very easy to provide news articles discussing the chronic pilot shortage that Norra has. There is nothing exceptional about hiring too few pilots, and the articles go a long way in proving that the cancellations are a commercial decision rather than a forced one.

nocod

Finnair now responded with this:
Will proceed with the EU cross border small claims process against Norra (not Finnair).

Does anyone have more information about this Norra pilots union situation? Sounds far fetched to call that a strike.

kauppias

WHat a bunch of garbage from AY!

This is one of AYs major downfalls for sure, how they handle their own mistakes and problems by deflecting the issues!

The fact that pilots do not do OVERTIME is surely NOT a strike!

I am sure I will be hit with this sillyness soon as I have flown more AY lately then before but if they send le replies like this that will end quite fast

On a side note SAS handles EU261 claims efficiently (about 4-6week to process kettle claims)