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Old Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.

Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
  • Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
  • Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
  • Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
  • Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
  • Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
  • Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
  • Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
  • McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
  • Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
  • Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
  • Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
  • Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
  • van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
  • Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
  • Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
  • Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
  • Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
  • Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
  • Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
  • Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
  • Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
  • CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.

European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.

When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time

Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.

Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.

Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.

Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted

Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted

Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!

Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax

Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted

Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)

Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??

Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??

?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation

?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher

Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher

Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted

?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted

Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info

Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)

???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.

Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)

Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.

Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.

May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.

Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).

Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)

List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf

European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf

If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf

To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.

You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
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Finnair and EC 261 compensation

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Old Mar 9, 2016, 2:40 am
  #61  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
I just received a reply from kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja by email. They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary circumstance and suggested that I make a complaint to KRIL. Will send the complaint today.

Last edited by ffay005; Mar 9, 2016 at 6:55 am Reason: grammar
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 3:42 am
  #62  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Posts: 8,749
TTL, I just started to think that you might have claimed less than you were entitled to. You were flying KUO-HEL-LPA and the first leg was cancelled, which resulted in a substantial delay arriving at LPA, correct?

I'm not 100 % sure about this, but shouldn't you receive compensation for the whole journey, which was far longer than 1500 km/€250?

(Also, the Canary Islands are, at least for some purposes, not part of the EU. That would give you €600.) If, for this purpose, they are part of the EU, you would be entitled to €400.
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 4:47 am
  #63  
TTL
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Programs: HH Diam, AY/AX/KQ/IHG/VISA Plat, SK/Bonvoy/Melia/Strawberry Gold, Radisson Prem, PP Prest
Posts: 2,266
As the flights were on separate tickets (KUO-HEL paid value ticket from AY and HEL-LPA with redemption ticket from BA), I did not want to push the issue further. Almost happy with the current end result, 2 x 300 eur in vouchers (50 eur vouchers were handed out before claim to KRIL) and most of the incurring expenses paid by AY.
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 6:54 am
  #64  
 
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I understand. I'm actually a little surprised that AY agreed to rebook you to LPA and pay the expenses since you had separate tickets.
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 7:20 am
  #65  
TTL
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OT: It is a problem to get OW redemption flights from domestic destinations to somewhere further away. /OT. There was an ample time in HEL between the AY operated flights and I based my claim only on the domestic delays. Had I been informed early enough, I could have driven to HEL to catch the original LPA flight. I was at KUO 6:00 AM and the SMS about cancellation came to my phone 6:07 AM.

OT: AF has good code-share arrangements with AY in Finland. I wish LH and BA would also... /OT. I do not know if double-emerald status (and sapphire status of the fellow passenger) affected the AY decisions. I know the KUO check in agents well and most likely, they played the biggest part in the rebooking process. Before second attempt we were also offered 17 eur vouchers for refreshments at KUO. So no hard feelings left towards NoRRA or AY!

Last edited by TTL; Mar 9, 2016 at 7:28 am
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 8:21 am
  #66  
HJP
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: HEL
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Originally Posted by TTL
Almost happy with the current end result, 2 x 300 eur in vouchers (50 eur vouchers were handed out before claim to KRIL)
So did you say that you accept the initial voucher offer that AY made (50€)? Don't you lose the right for EU261 if you accept these low-€ voucher offers?

I am asking this because they offered 300€ to me instead of 2x600€, but I declined the offer before contacting Kuluttajaneuvoja.
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 8:51 am
  #67  
TTL
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Posts: 2,266
Those 50 eur vouchers were offered without my approval along with the mail to condolence the delay. I replied by saying thank you, that I will not stop at that point, and will claim the costs and EU261/2004 compensation.

Learning from this case I will be more careful in my responses in the future and in particular the phony compensation offers related to private travel. I fly mostly for business and there are no chances to use KRiL for those claims. For the last 3 years I would have about a dozen delays over 3 hours in the business destinations.
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 11:07 am
  #68  
 
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Originally Posted by TTL
Those 50 eur vouchers were offered without my approval along with the mail to condolence the delay. I replied by saying thank you, that I will not stop at that point, and will claim the costs and EU261/2004 compensation.
Interesting – when I got offered the €50 voucher, they wanted my approval and would only send the voucher after they received my approval. Which they didn't. Not very consistent.
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Old Mar 9, 2016, 12:13 pm
  #69  
HJP
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: HEL
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Posts: 428
Originally Posted by ffay005
Interesting – when I got offered the €50 voucher, they wanted my approval and would only send the voucher after they received my approval. Which they didn't. Not very consistent.
Same with me:

"Lähetämme lahjakortin sähköpostitse, mikäli ilmoitatte hyväksyvänne sen sovintona asiassa kahden viikon kuluessa."
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Old Mar 21, 2016, 11:40 pm
  #70  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 231
I send a request for compensation. My flight was delayed 6h when flying the A350 to Beijing.


the response I got

Dear XX Thank you for your patience in waiting for our reply. I am sorry for all the inconvenience caused by the Helsinki-Beijing flight delay on the 20th of February 2016. Finnair is investigating the reason for the flight AY051 delay. In this case EMU (Engine Monitoring Unit) was broken after landing from the previous route. EMU needed to be changed. This aircraft is one of our newest Airbus A350’s, only 4 months old aircraft, so this failure has most probably been caused by a mistake in the manufacturing or design/engineering process. Finnair ensures passengers' safe flight with all possible foreseeable measures that can reasonably be required. Our aircrafts’ condition is constantly monitored. However, there are defects and circumstances that are beyond our actual control since they cannot be foreseen or prevented due to their nature or origin. Unfortunately, no standard compensation will be paid. In these circumstances we offer care to passengers. If you have any hotel, meal or telephone costs despite of our care and you have a possibility to scan your receipts, please submit them by using the reply link below. Log in to your case and upload the documents. Keep the original receipts for one year. In recognition of the difficulties you encountered during your journey we want to offer you a gift voucher of 150 euro for Finnair flights. The gift voucher is not personal, i.e. you can also give it to someone else or pay for several passengers tickets. The gift voucher is valid for one year. The actual flight date may be within one year from the booking date. The voucher will be sent to you by e-mail, if you accept the voucher as a settlement in this matter within 2 weeks. We look forward to having the opportunity to provide a more pleasurable experience in the future. Sincerely Finnair Plc Customer Relations
Somehow I really feel like forwarding this to Airbus...
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Old Mar 22, 2016, 2:11 am
  #71  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HEL
Programs: AY, SK, TK
Posts: 7,598
Originally Posted by casper79
I send a request for compensation. My flight was delayed 6h when flying the A350 to Beijing.


the response I got



Somehow I really feel like forwarding this to Airbus...
Google and you will find there are cases which show that technical faults do no constitute extraordinary circumstances, instead airline should be prepared for any technical faults which are inherent to aviation operations.

I am also waiting for my reply for some weeks now. Only got a message so far "apologies we have received a lot of cases and our service line has jammed"
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Old Mar 30, 2016, 12:46 pm
  #72  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 231
After some discussions by the online feedback tool I'm quite tired of it. I even suggested to do a cash neutral transaction for them (meaning giving me a 600€ voucher instead of cash).

The response remains negative.

I just moved to Finland couple of months ago, so I'm quite new to the systems here . Can somebody give me advise on how to enforce the EU261 regulation?

I read that in Finland it might be difficult to get EU261 compensation?

Is there anything like a class-action ongoing to get some compensation for the A350 misery?

thanks
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Old Apr 3, 2016, 4:05 pm
  #73  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Gold, BAEC Gold, IHG Gold Amb
Posts: 15
I have been waiting a reply from CS for two weeks now about my 400e from AY831 on 18th of March. (LWC broke up and we had to wait for LTR to replace this incredible and fantastic new A350..) I only did got a notification four days ago about long queues. I can't wait to get a suggestion to accept some 50e voucher.
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Old Apr 3, 2016, 6:51 pm
  #74  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
Originally Posted by TTL
NoRRA approached me and offered two €250 vouchers for future Finnair flights for us to drop the charges in KRIL. I took the offer but also replied, that hopefully Finnair/NoRRA will not in the future disregard EC261 claims caused by non force majeure delays/cancellations. I hope that the message becomes clearer and clearer also to them, after many of us escalate and have escalated the matters to KRIL.
My case, which I believe is essentially similar to yours, seems to be handled differently by AY. It's now been almost three weeks since I received a letter of receipt from KRIL. No reaction from AY's side.

KRIL estimates it will take ten months for them to reach a decision.
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Old Apr 4, 2016, 12:12 pm
  #75  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Gold (OWS)
Posts: 528
Originally Posted by casper79
After some discussions by the online feedback tool I'm quite tired of it. I even suggested to do a cash neutral transaction for them (meaning giving me a 600€ voucher instead of cash).

The response remains negative.

I just moved to Finland couple of months ago, so I'm quite new to the systems here . Can somebody give me advise on how to enforce the EU261 regulation?

I read that in Finland it might be difficult to get EU261 compensation?

Is there anything like a class-action ongoing to get some compensation for the A350 misery?

thanks
Did you travel on business or leisure? If leisure, you can submit a complaint to the Consumer Disputes Board, www.kuluttajariita.fi.
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