Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
- Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
- Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
- Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
- Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
- Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
- Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
- Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
- McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
- Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
- Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
- Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
- Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
- van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
- Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
- Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
- Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
- Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
- Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
- Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
- Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
- Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
- CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
Finnair and EC 261 compensation
Apr 4, 2019, 9:14 am
#931
Join Date: Mar 2009
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 113
Does anyone know if the vouchers offered as compensation are the same as the gift vouchers?
The Finnair website seems to indicate gift vouchers can only be used for flights leaving countries using the € priced as such, which wouldn't be very convenient for those of us who don't live in € countries.
The Finnair website seems to indicate gift vouchers can only be used for flights leaving countries using the € priced as such, which wouldn't be very convenient for those of us who don't live in € countries.
Apr 4, 2019, 9:16 am
#932
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,732
Technically yes, they are the same. However, you can call AY and use the voucher for any ticket regardless of the currency. They will not charge a phone booking fee for such a booking.
Apr 4, 2019, 9:52 am
#933
Join Date: Mar 2009
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 113
Apr 4, 2019, 10:14 am
#934
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,041
No it is not, because once your are to late as of MCT it is absolutely in the control of the airline what will happen, because they can claim operational issues to put you on a later flight as well as they can hold the plane or rush you to the gate, but if you insist that you still can go with that plane they can just refuse it (if it fits to their plans).
Apr 4, 2019, 3:14 pm
#935
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
No it is not, because once your are to late as of MCT it is absolutely in the control of the airline what will happen, because they can claim operational issues to put you on a later flight as well as they can hold the plane or rush you to the gate, but if you insist that you still can go with that plane they can just refuse it (if it fits to their plans).
In conclusion, if it is below the MCT but you somehow make it to the departure gate before boarding ends, then the airline can't deny you to board the flight.
Apr 4, 2019, 3:16 pm
#936
Join Date: Mar 2018
Programs: AY+ Platinum / FlyingBlue Gold
Posts: 834
I have the Dutch nationality and I'm based in The Netherlands. So I am considering submitting it in The Netherlands. 
Not sure yet if it's worth the hassle, but I do still think I have a fairly strong case here. I don't want to be a pain in the *ss for them, I really would like to settle it in a gentle way.
However this is not just about me, it's about lots of people that keep getting the ''overtime-ban/extraordinary circumstance'' argument from Finnair/NoRRA.
1. Cancellation 2 days in advance
2. Cancellations because of pilot ilness
3. Finnair couldn't find replacement pilot and blames it on an extraordinary circumstance because of overtime ban
4. This overtime ban has been in place for months, so by now they should be prepared for this
5. This seems clearly more of a crew shortage issue than anything else
Not sure yet if it's worth the hassle, but I do still think I have a fairly strong case here. I don't want to be a pain in the *ss for them, I really would like to settle it in a gentle way.
However this is not just about me, it's about lots of people that keep getting the ''overtime-ban/extraordinary circumstance'' argument from Finnair/NoRRA.
1. Cancellation 2 days in advance
2. Cancellations because of pilot ilness
3. Finnair couldn't find replacement pilot and blames it on an extraordinary circumstance because of overtime ban
4. This overtime ban has been in place for months, so by now they should be prepared for this
5. This seems clearly more of a crew shortage issue than anything else
How much longer would you wait?
Apr 4, 2019, 4:55 pm
#937
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
Apr 5, 2019, 12:01 am
#938
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere in the Air
Programs: BA GGL, *A Silver, OW Emerald, HH Diamond, Karahi Express
Posts: 554
Hi All,
Wonder if you can help ..... Am I due EC261 Compensation?
1) Original Flights (All on AY 105 Ticket - Single PNR – Business Class Flights)
• 22/03 BUD - HEL AY1252 Depart 11:35 Arrive 14:55
• 22/03 HEL - DEL AY121 Depart 20:20 Arrive 06:40
• 30/03 DEL - HEL AY122 Depart 10:35 Arrive 14:45
• 30/03 HEL - FRA AY1415 Depart 16:55 Arrive 18:35
2) Outbound BUD-HEL-DEL – All went according to plan :-)
3) Inbound DEL-HEL-FRA – Things went wrong• 30/03 CPH – FRA LH831 Depart 19:15 Arrive 20:45
• Departed 19:22 Arrived 20:45
• 31/03 CPH – FRA LH 833 Depart 06:50 Arrive 08:20
• Departed 06:55 Arrived 08:20
4) So all in all I was almost 14 hours late arriving at Frankfurt Airport
Can i claim EC261 Compensation?
Thanks
Wonder if you can help ..... Am I due EC261 Compensation?
1) Original Flights (All on AY 105 Ticket - Single PNR – Business Class Flights)
• 22/03 BUD - HEL AY1252 Depart 11:35 Arrive 14:55
• 22/03 HEL - DEL AY121 Depart 20:20 Arrive 06:40
• 30/03 DEL - HEL AY122 Depart 10:35 Arrive 14:45
• 30/03 HEL - FRA AY1415 Depart 16:55 Arrive 18:35
2) Outbound BUD-HEL-DEL – All went according to plan :-)
3) Inbound DEL-HEL-FRA – Things went wrong
• Finnair Communications
• Mar 29 at 2:44 AM (German Time) – Received Standard email from Finnair Customer Service (More than 24 hours before flight)• “Your journey to Frankfurt on 30.03.2019 is about to start. Make sure to check out our travel extras below to find out how to make the most of your journey”
• Mar 29 at 9:53 PM (German Time – Less than 24 hours before flight departure) – Early Morning Delhi Time say about 01:53 – Received “Flight Notification” Email (did not read email until later when I woke up to get ready to go to the airport)
• “AY122 Delhi - Helsinki 30.03.2019 - Due to the closure of Pakistan airspace, there may be delays on Finnair flights from Helsinki to India and Thailand and vice versa caused by longer flight routes.We will reroute missed onward connections on the same ticket from Helsinki.We apologize for the inconvenience.”
• Mar 30 at around 08:15 Local Delhi Time – I read the email, then checked the Finnair App on mobile app and low and behold I had already been re-routed!! I called Finnair and they confirmed that I was now booked on Air India and Lufthansa in Business Class!! According to the“Flight Notification” Email, I thought that they would have flown me to Helsinki and then found me an alternative connection onwards to Frankfurt. But instead put me on Star Alliance flights ????
• New Route (Star Alliance – Air India / Lufthansa)• 30/03 DEL – CPH AI157 Scheduled Departure 12:40 - Scheduled Arrival 17:50• Departed 13:31 Arrived 18:40• As Air India were not able to issue me a Boarding Pass at Delhi for the LH831 CPH-FRA flight, I had to run to Transit Desk in CPH upon Arrival.
• Mar 29 at 2:44 AM (German Time) – Received Standard email from Finnair Customer Service (More than 24 hours before flight)• “Your journey to Frankfurt on 30.03.2019 is about to start. Make sure to check out our travel extras below to find out how to make the most of your journey”
• Mar 29 at 9:53 PM (German Time – Less than 24 hours before flight departure) – Early Morning Delhi Time say about 01:53 – Received “Flight Notification” Email (did not read email until later when I woke up to get ready to go to the airport)
• “AY122 Delhi - Helsinki 30.03.2019 - Due to the closure of Pakistan airspace, there may be delays on Finnair flights from Helsinki to India and Thailand and vice versa caused by longer flight routes.We will reroute missed onward connections on the same ticket from Helsinki.We apologize for the inconvenience.”
• Mar 30 at around 08:15 Local Delhi Time – I read the email, then checked the Finnair App on mobile app and low and behold I had already been re-routed!! I called Finnair and they confirmed that I was now booked on Air India and Lufthansa in Business Class!! According to the“Flight Notification” Email, I thought that they would have flown me to Helsinki and then found me an alternative connection onwards to Frankfurt. But instead put me on Star Alliance flights ????
• New Route (Star Alliance – Air India / Lufthansa)• 30/03 DEL – CPH AI157 Scheduled Departure 12:40 - Scheduled Arrival 17:50• Departed 13:31 Arrived 18:40• As Air India were not able to issue me a Boarding Pass at Delhi for the LH831 CPH-FRA flight, I had to run to Transit Desk in CPH upon Arrival.
- The Star Alliance Transit desk team were having problems printing my boarding pass :-(
- After about 15 minutes trying to print me a boarding pass. One of the other colleagues announced that the LH 831 flight CPH-FRA was now CLOSED !!! Arghhhhh ....
- They then booked me on the morning flight CPH-FRA the next day (31/03 @ 06:50)
- Ground Staff were excellent in getting my hold luggage to me, arranging hotel, dinner voucher and even metro vouchers to get to the hotel and back.
• 31/03 CPH – FRA LH 833 Depart 06:50 Arrive 08:20
• Departed 06:55 Arrived 08:20
4) So all in all I was almost 14 hours late arriving at Frankfurt Airport
• Have since spoken to BA GGL Line and they have put in a request to Finnair to claim ORC TP and Avios.
Can i claim EC261 Compensation?
Thanks
Apr 5, 2019, 12:19 am
#939
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Helsinki-Vantaa APT, Finland
Programs: AY LUMO
Posts: 6,055
Apr 5, 2019, 12:33 am
#940
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere in the Air
Programs: BA GGL, *A Silver, OW Emerald, HH Diamond, Karahi Express
Posts: 554
Apr 5, 2019, 12:45 am
#941
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,732
EC261 is an interesting question. Originally, had you arrived at FRA according to the reroute they gave you, the answer is 'no' because Pakistani airspace closure is definitely an extraordinary circumstance. However, it sounds to me like you missing your last leg was mostly the fault of LH staff. You would need to apply with LH, though. Please let us know what decision they make.
As a side note, would you have been able to reach your boarding gate instead of the transfer desk? In that case, it might have been better to just go straight to the boarding gate. They can issue BPs there, and your chances to make the flight would likely have been better.
Apr 5, 2019, 5:10 am
#942
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
However, under 261/2004 rules, AY needs to rebook you at no additional cost. It doesn't sound as if it is at no additional cost if, as a result of the reroute, you earn fewer points in the FFP of your choice, so I think that the European Court of Justice likely would award ORC, at least as long as you don't attempt to double dip to a Star Alliance programme.
Apr 5, 2019, 5:41 am
#943
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere in the Air
Programs: BA GGL, *A Silver, OW Emerald, HH Diamond, Karahi Express
Posts: 554
AFAIK, ORC only applies within the AY+ programme, so AY would issue ORC in AY+ points, but not Avios.
EC261 is an interesting question. Originally, had you arrived at FRA according to the reroute they gave you, the answer is 'no' because Pakistani airspace closure is definitely an extraordinary circumstance. However, it sounds to me like you missing your last leg was mostly the fault of LH staff. You would need to apply with LH, though. Please let us know what decision they make.
As a side note, would you have been able to reach your boarding gate instead of the transfer desk? In that case, it might have been better to just go straight to the boarding gate. They can issue BPs there, and your chances to make the flight would likely have been better.
EC261 is an interesting question. Originally, had you arrived at FRA according to the reroute they gave you, the answer is 'no' because Pakistani airspace closure is definitely an extraordinary circumstance. However, it sounds to me like you missing your last leg was mostly the fault of LH staff. You would need to apply with LH, though. Please let us know what decision they make.
As a side note, would you have been able to reach your boarding gate instead of the transfer desk? In that case, it might have been better to just go straight to the boarding gate. They can issue BPs there, and your chances to make the flight would likely have been better.
Apr 5, 2019, 5:47 am
#944
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Somewhere in the Air
Programs: BA GGL, *A Silver, OW Emerald, HH Diamond, Karahi Express
Posts: 554
The booking was made on Finnair Site and my BA Executive club membership number was added. The TP and Avios for the outbound flight have posted to my BA EC account. So why should the inbound ORC TP and Avios not be credited to my BA account? When i spoke to BA GGL they didn't have a problem registering my claim for ORC.
Apr 5, 2019, 6:40 am
#945
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
The booking was made on Finnair Site and my BA Executive club membership number was added. The TP and Avios for the outbound flight have posted to my BA EC account. So why should the inbound ORC TP and Avios not be credited to my BA account? When i spoke to BA GGL they didn't have a problem registering my claim for ORC.
