Old Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.

Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
  • Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
  • Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
  • Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
  • Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
  • Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
  • Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
  • Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
  • McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
  • Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
  • Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
  • Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
  • Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
  • van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
  • Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
  • Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
  • Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
  • Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
  • Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
  • Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
  • Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
  • Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
  • CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.

European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.

When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time

Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.

Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.

Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.

Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted

Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted

Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!

Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax

Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted

Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)

Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??

Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??

?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation

?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher

Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher

Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted

?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted

Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info

Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)

???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.

Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)

Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.

Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.

May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.

Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).

Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)

List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf

European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf

If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf

To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.

You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
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Finnair and EC 261 compensation

Old Mar 21, 2019, 6:40 am
  #886  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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@EuroFlash, try your local office of ECC to begin with. They cannot order Finnair to pay, but they have some stronger power for negotiations through cooperation with Finnish ECC. It's probably your last gentle-ish option before taking this to the Small Claims Court.
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Old Mar 21, 2019, 8:24 am
  #887  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by on22cz
@EuroFlash, try your local office of ECC to begin with. They cannot order Finnair to pay, but they have some stronger power for negotiations through cooperation with Finnish ECC. It's probably your last gentle-ish option before taking this to the Small Claims Court.
Great tip! Thanks. I am still awaiting Finnair’s reply to my appeal before taking any further steps. Once I have their reply I will decide what to do.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 2:39 am
  #888  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 30
Rebooked connection /24+ hours delay

friends of mine were on the JL6818 = AY1302 from Ams to Hel on March 22nd. The flight was delayed, probably because of fog. They were connecting to JL6808= AY071 to NRT ( Tokyo) departure time 16.25. On arrival in Helsinki they were told to report to the transfer desk as they were rebooked for their connecting flight. They sent me a whatsapp message at 15.51 that they were in line at the desk. This means they had to be out of the plane by 15.50 so were actually within the 35 minute MCT. Their new flight was at 17.15 the NEXT DAY and indirect to boot.

Now I get that fog is an extraordinary circumstance but in this case it seems they were unnecessarily rebooked causing a huge delay. Especially when you see their original flight to Tokyo was delayed as well. Wonder if they did shuttle some passengers from the Ams flight that way but left out the low fare passengers, my friends heard there were 22 passengers on their flight making the same connection.

Finnair said all other flights on Friday were full as were the direct flights on Saturday. On expertflyer I did see some availability for the Saturday direct flights but don't know how accurate that is. When I called Finnair I was told they didn't show any availability.

Is there any chance they could get some kind of compensation and how would they best go about it?

Last edited by babarage; Mar 25, 2019 at 3:53 am
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 3:12 am
  #889  
 
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@babarage - I see the situation from these perspectives:
1. If they were out of the plane at 15.50, they should had rushed to the Tokyo gate and ignore instructions to go to the transfer desk. I think the gate would still be open. However, to the most of travellers, once you are told to place A, you will most likely comply with instructions, so I wouldn't really blame them for that. It would help if they had some written information of being offloaded from that flight to Tokyo with time stamp around the Amsterdam flight landing time (to make grounds for why they did not show up at the departure gate).
2. I would say that if the flight from Amsterdam arrived within MCT limits, it was AY's fault to offload them. In other words, I would let AY prove that the door were open after the MCT threshold. Even though, based on your estimation of when they were out of the plane, this should be clear.
3. It sounds almost unbelievable there would be no faster connection than after more than 24 hours. I assume they were just status-less passengers, so AY didn't want to be "creative". However, EC261 requires them to book passengers on first available flight. No restriction to operating carrier. Therefore, while the fog may have caused some delay, I dare to say the unnecessary delay on arrival was long enough to make grounds for compensation.

This may be a difficult case and you may need some authorities to assist.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 3:16 am
  #890  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by babarage
friends of mine were on the JL6806 = AY1302 from Ams to Hel on March 22nd. The flight was delayed, probably because of fog. They were connecting to JL6818= AY073 to NRT ( Tokyo) departure time 16.25.
Must be AY71
And JL 6806 is HEL-NRT, JL 6818 AMS-HEL.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 3:54 am
  #891  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by OH-LGG
Must be AY71
And JL 6806 is HEL-NRT, JL 6818 AMS-HEL.
thank you. Corrected it.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 3:57 am
  #892  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 30
@on22cz
Thank you. Some good points to put in the claim. They received an email from flight interruptions at 17.02 eet 16.02 cet, so while they were in line at the transfer desk.

And as you said, not being travelers that are on the move all the time they followed instructions. Cabin crew said on the plane "talk to gate staff" who then told them to go to transfer desk.

Last edited by babarage; Mar 25, 2019 at 4:08 am
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:17 am
  #893  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Hm when I do look at flightaware I can see the AY1302 was at 16:30eet at the gate AY71 was scheduled for 16:25eet and left at 16:57eet. So it looks it was not in the MCT (or do I get something wrong).

Did you check if your friends been aware of the time difference? It happens from time to time that people don t realize that HEL time is different from CET.

Last edited by Ed Size; Mar 25, 2019 at 4:44 am
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:23 am
  #894  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Originally Posted by babarage
Cabin crew said on the plane "talk to gate staff" who then told them to go to transfer desk.
I think this is the most revealing info so far. Not blaming the pax here, but CC are usually not in the know of airport operations, and if pax would have just proceeded to the departure gate without talking to anyone, all would have been fine. Or, if they had been denied boarding, it would most likely have been a case of overbooking and they'd get their €600 without much ado.

However, in this case, I don't think the odds of getting compensation are very high. AMS flight was delayed due to weather, pax would still have made the NRT flight but instead "decided" to mingle aroung the transfer desk and do nothing to reach the NRT flight. This sounds harsh, I know, but my guess is that's the way AY is going to see this case as pax will not be able to prove that they were given wrong info on the plane and at the arrival gate. Sorry.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:25 am
  #895  
 
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Originally Posted by Ed Size
Hm when I do look at flightaware I can see the AY1302 was at 16:30eet at the gate AY71 was scheduled for 16:25eet and left at 16:57eet. So it looks it was not in the MCT (or do I get something wrong).
Perhaps they were on AY73 at 17:30.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:30 am
  #896  
 
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Originally Posted by ffay005
Perhaps they were on AY73 at 17:30.
As far as I understand JL6808 = AY71.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:31 am
  #897  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 30
Oddly enough Flightstats has different data from flightradar24 which says the plane landed at 14.26.



Last edited by babarage; Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 am
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:37 am
  #898  
 
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Originally Posted by babarage
Oddly enough Flightstats has different data from flightradar24 which says the plane landed at 15.26 this to me fits the timeframe since I would imagine it is gated and deboarding in about 20 minutes of landing.


All websites I checked (flightaware, flightstats and flightradar) showing 16:26eet as landing time - check the websites.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:48 am
  #899  
 
Join Date: May 2016
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Like I showed, flightradar shows different time. But they are odd, 14.26 doesn't make sense. The times are confusing the heck out of me now. it does seem that there was no way to make the connection. So that scratches that argument. Only question is if there was nothing they could do on the day or next bexause no seats were available. But that is probably a very hard argument to make.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 5:02 am
  #900  
 
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Originally Posted by babarage
Like I showed, flightradar shows different time. But they are odd, 14.26 doesn't make sense.
As I said, the website of flightradar24.com shows 16:26eet - maybe there is a glitch in the app?
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