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Old Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
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Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.

Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
  • Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
  • Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
  • Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
  • Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
  • Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
  • Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
  • Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
  • McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
  • Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
  • Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
  • Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
  • Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
  • van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
  • Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
  • Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
  • Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
  • Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
  • Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
  • Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
  • Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
  • Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
  • CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.

European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.

When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time

Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.

Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.

Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.

Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted

Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted

Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!

Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax

Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted

Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)

Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??

Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??

?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation

?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher

Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher

Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted

?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted

Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info

Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)

???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.

Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)

Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.

Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.

May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.

Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).

Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)

List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf

European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf

If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf

To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.

You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
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Finnair and EC 261 compensation

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Old Dec 14, 2017, 6:59 am
  #466  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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You should start by claiming from Finnair, which you can do on their website through the feedback form. It is of course unlikely that they will compensate anything, as they will blame weather which does constitute exceptional circumstances under EC261.
deissi is offline  
Old Dec 14, 2017, 8:23 am
  #467  
 
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IIRC the original reason for the delay only applies to the first flight after the extraordinary event occurs.

Yes there was one day of "snow/wind chaos" in HEL but only flights departing/arriving HEL on that day are within this extraordinary circumstance, not the following flights in the coming days.

I think that delay due to late incoming aircraft is not extraordinary. No matter what the original cause is.
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Old Dec 15, 2017, 1:50 am
  #468  
 
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Originally Posted by aama
IIRC the original reason for the delay only applies to the first flight after the extraordinary event occurs.

Yes there was one day of "snow/wind chaos" in HEL but only flights departing/arriving HEL on that day are within this extraordinary circumstance, not the following flights in the coming days.

I think that delay due to late incoming aircraft is not extraordinary. No matter what the original cause is.
That was my thinking - we are talking 3 days after the event at least. Also, my wife is a bit peeved that she didn't find out about the delay until she arrived in HEL at lunchtime... surely they knew that the inbound flight was delayed the previous evening - if she was informed at checkin (in LHR) then she might have been able to re-route, saving me from having to take a day off work to look after the kids!!
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Old Dec 15, 2017, 8:22 am
  #469  
 
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I've put a request in, will see what happens. As there was no closure/weather at SGN, it doesn't seem unreasonable to request it. No offer of alternative routing was made - and SGN-HKG-LHR would have sufficed.

If it's turned down, perhaps they'll offer some kind of good-will gesture. Will see what happens...

Last edited by mmxbreaks; Dec 15, 2017 at 9:20 am
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Old Dec 16, 2017, 4:40 am
  #470  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Originally Posted by ffay005
My interpretation would be that Tuesday's flights to/from HEL are not eligible for EU261 compensation. The chaos was caused by (1) labour action; no compensation, (2) strong winds; weather, no compensation and to a lesser extent (3) snow, nothing that special really, but nevertheless weather; no compensation.

However, the interesting thing here is how long it will take for AY to get their act together. Many longhaul planes stay in the air for 20 hours, leaving practically no room for delays of any kind. If they have flights arriving hours late days from now, they probably cannot blame it on labour action or weather that occured several days ago.
I suspect you are right that it will be difficult/impossible to extract money. What I find annoying is that the industrial action was an overtime ban which has been running for some time evidently. The fact there were no staff to unload bags from planes is poor management as it relates to staff rostering which is controllable as opposed to a full strike. They still have not given me a Property Irregularity Report as there were not enough staff to process delayed luggage forms so I wont be able to claim. As for the snowstorm stopping things, I can say I have flown to Finland for about 20 years and the weather has never caused such delays as Finland is a country where it can snow every day in winter so I struggle to see how it is an unusual occurrence. My view is that Finnair management winged it with not enough staff and the gamble failed. Finally if a company has an overtime ban is there no requirement on them to actually inform customers and offer alternative travel options? Certainly BA does as do many other airlines. Finnair seem to hide these things.
John Cullen is offline  
Old Dec 16, 2017, 9:39 pm
  #471  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
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When did the overtime action start? When looking at flight radar I saw that cargo planes were not affected, neither was Turkish airlines. So to me the delay is an economical decision to not leave without cargo (even if action was spontaneous) as food was loaded, plane was ready.

Can somebody get the list of actual departure times of all flights from hel on Tuesday? This can prove anomaly is caused by overtime ban and not by weather circumstances. Or Atleast show that it was an interaction of both.
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Old Dec 17, 2017, 2:23 am
  #472  
 
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Originally Posted by casper79
When looking at flight radar I saw that cargo planes were not affected, neither was Turkish airlines. So to me the delay is an economical decision to not leave without cargo (even if action was spontaneous) as food was loaded, plane was ready.
There are 2 or 3 companies for baggage handling. The company handling AY will probably be low on staff outside the 3 waves since AY is the by far biggest airline in HEL. As far I understand, getting support from another company is unrealistic simply because this would circumvent the IAU action. So highly likely the workers would refuse to help AY.
Jainzar is offline  
Old Dec 20, 2017, 5:00 am
  #473  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by Dkdude
I just got this from Finnair customer service after waiting 40 days. They are claiming an Airbus recall, so no compensation.... Any thoughts? What are my options??
I declined original offer from Finnair (250eur), saying that I am entitled for more and here's what they responded to me:

Thank you for your message.

I am sorry to hear that we were not able to reach an agreement on the matter.

According to EC legislation a manufacturing defect or design flaw eliminates the airline’s obligation to pay EC standard compensation. In this case aircraft manufacturer has confirmed that there has been a hidden design defect in flap moving damper in Airbus A350 fleet. Aircraft manufacturer has published a technical follow up document TFU 27.54.00.020.

Since Airbus has informed airlines about this hidden design defect affecting the safety of flights thus no standard compensation will be paid.

Sincerely

Finnair Customer Relations


What do you think, should I go to court or is this a lost cause?

Thanks
mrjon is offline  
Old Dec 20, 2017, 7:49 am
  #474  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Was on AY102 HKG-HEL today, 1.5hrs late leaving due to an issue with the brakes. They made up 30mins en route & cabin crew messaged ahead asking for AY1365 (MAN) to be held as it's the last flight of the night (I also had an onward connection at MAN, AY6673 to EXT), all flights on one ticket. Sprinted through HEL transit (AY1365 itself was 20mins delayed) but gate had already closed when I arrived, so obviously the message hadn't got through! :-(

Looks like an overnight & re-route tomorrow, presumably this should be an open & shut EU261 case (both hotel tonight & €600)?

Pretty poor from AY all round, have already been travelling 25hrs from Australia, albeit in J.
Nikko5 is offline  
Old Dec 20, 2017, 9:39 am
  #475  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
P.S.

AY102 seems to be having a bad week, significant delays on every flight this week (our 1.5hr today was comfortably the least delay!) Should've checked Flightradar before booking, does make AY's loved short connections at HEL rather risky! To update the post above, AY have duly provided the hotel & a re-route tomorrow, so all good so far...
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Old Dec 24, 2017, 1:07 pm
  #476  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 699
I had an issue some time ago with Finnair where I was delayed for 4 plus hours due to a misconnection in HEL as my flight from LHR was delayed. After filing a claim with AY they refused it on the basis of ATC - extraordinary circumstances. When I delved further, I discovered the actual ATC delay happened the day prior in HKG (it was an A350). I lodged a claim with a no win no claim solicitor. After sending letters to Finnair which were not responded to the solicitor reviewed the circumstances and considered my case strong and have issued court papers on finnair.
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Old Dec 24, 2017, 2:31 pm
  #477  
 
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In which country does he prepare to go to court?
ffay005 is offline  
Old Dec 24, 2017, 7:43 pm
  #478  
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Originally Posted by ffay005
In which country does he prepare to go to court?
The usage of the word "solicitor" + bananahead's BA Gold would suggest to me the UK.
WilcoRoger is offline  
Old Dec 28, 2017, 8:13 am
  #479  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 699
Originally Posted by ffay005
In which country does he prepare to go to court?
Yes the UK.

The solicitor has said this is how the case will proceed -
- from serving the papers Finnair has 14 days to acknowledge the court proceedings (if they do not a judgement will automatically be made against them)
- Finnair will then have two to six weeks to either admit liability (unlikely) or provide a formal written defence to the court.
- the court can then take months or even years to settle the claim.

I'm not bothered how long it takes and i'm not even that bothered about the money. It has become a matter of principle for me now. Even if the compensation was $10 i'd pursue it. I am disgusted how Finnair deal with customers, try and wriggle out of their obligations and blatantly lie in some of their communications.
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Old Dec 28, 2017, 8:52 am
  #480  
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Originally Posted by bananahead
I'm not bothered how long it takes and i'm not even that bothered about the money. It has become a matter of principle for me now. Even if the compensation was $10 i'd pursue it. I am disgusted how Finnair deal with customers, try and wriggle out of their obligations and blatantly lie in some of their communications.
Name an airline that behaves better...
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