Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
- Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
- Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
- Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
- Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
- Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
- Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
- Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
- McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
- Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
- Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
- Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
- Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
- van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
- Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
- Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
- Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
- Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
- Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
- Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
- Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
- Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
- CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
Finnair and EC 261 compensation
Jun 16, 2016, 9:13 am
#121
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Gold
Posts: 428
I just received their reply for this case, here some highlights of it:
Pahoittelen Bangkokin lennon viivästymistä 17.1.2016 ja sitä, ettei sinun ja xxx paluumatka Helsinkiin sujunut alkuperäisen suunnitelman mukaisesti. Finnair selvittää lennon AY090 viivästymisen syytä. Kyseessä on ollut laipan ohjaajan rikkoutuminen uusimmasta A350 -koneessamme. Vika havaittiin edellisellä lennolla Helsinkiin laskeutumisen jälkeen ja se oli korjattava ennen seuraavaa lentoa. Lento Bangkokiin lennettiin heti kun varakone oli saatavilla. Ottaen huomioon, että kyseessä oli aivan uusi A350 -lentokone ja vika oli yllättävä ja arvaamaton, on vian todennäköisimmin aiheuttanut valmistus- tai suunnitteluvirhe. Lentokoneiden kuntoa tarkkaillaan jatkuvasti ja Finnair varmentaa matkustajien turvallisen lentomatkan kaikin mahdollisin ennakoivin toimenpitein. Näistä toimenpiteistä huolimatta koneissa voi esiintyä odottamattomia lentoturvallisuuteen vaikuttavia vikoja, jotka ilmenevät luonteensa tai alkuperänsä vuoksi yllättäen. Vakiokorvausta ei tässä tilanteessa makseta, koska kyseessä oli vika, jota ei voinut ennakoivin toimenpitein välttää. Näissä olosuhteissa Finnair tarjoaa kuitenkin huolenpitoa. Mikäli teille on tästä huolimatta aiheutunut viivästyksen aikana ylimääräisiä ateria- ja puhelinkuluja ja sinulla on mahdollisuus skannata kuitit, voit lähettää ne meille sähköisesti alla olevan vastauslinkin kautta.
Ymmärrän, että tästä pitkästä viivästymisestä on aiheutunut harmia ja vaivaa. Haluamme tarjota sinulle ja xxx hyvän asiakassuhteen säilyttämiseksi yhteisen 300 euron arvoisen lahjakortin
Lähetämme lahjakortin sähköpostitse, mikäli ilmoitatte hyväksyvänne sen sovintona asiassa kahden viikon kuluessa.
How would you answer? Basically we are willing to take a voucher for future travel, but 300€ for 2 persons is not much compared to 2 x 600€ EC261 cash compensation.
Pahoittelen Bangkokin lennon viivästymistä 17.1.2016 ja sitä, ettei sinun ja xxx paluumatka Helsinkiin sujunut alkuperäisen suunnitelman mukaisesti. Finnair selvittää lennon AY090 viivästymisen syytä. Kyseessä on ollut laipan ohjaajan rikkoutuminen uusimmasta A350 -koneessamme. Vika havaittiin edellisellä lennolla Helsinkiin laskeutumisen jälkeen ja se oli korjattava ennen seuraavaa lentoa. Lento Bangkokiin lennettiin heti kun varakone oli saatavilla. Ottaen huomioon, että kyseessä oli aivan uusi A350 -lentokone ja vika oli yllättävä ja arvaamaton, on vian todennäköisimmin aiheuttanut valmistus- tai suunnitteluvirhe. Lentokoneiden kuntoa tarkkaillaan jatkuvasti ja Finnair varmentaa matkustajien turvallisen lentomatkan kaikin mahdollisin ennakoivin toimenpitein. Näistä toimenpiteistä huolimatta koneissa voi esiintyä odottamattomia lentoturvallisuuteen vaikuttavia vikoja, jotka ilmenevät luonteensa tai alkuperänsä vuoksi yllättäen. Vakiokorvausta ei tässä tilanteessa makseta, koska kyseessä oli vika, jota ei voinut ennakoivin toimenpitein välttää. Näissä olosuhteissa Finnair tarjoaa kuitenkin huolenpitoa. Mikäli teille on tästä huolimatta aiheutunut viivästyksen aikana ylimääräisiä ateria- ja puhelinkuluja ja sinulla on mahdollisuus skannata kuitit, voit lähettää ne meille sähköisesti alla olevan vastauslinkin kautta.
Ymmärrän, että tästä pitkästä viivästymisestä on aiheutunut harmia ja vaivaa. Haluamme tarjota sinulle ja xxx hyvän asiakassuhteen säilyttämiseksi yhteisen 300 euron arvoisen lahjakortin
Lähetämme lahjakortin sähköpostitse, mikäli ilmoitatte hyväksyvänne sen sovintona asiassa kahden viikon kuluessa.
How would you answer? Basically we are willing to take a voucher for future travel, but 300€ for 2 persons is not much compared to 2 x 600€ EC261 cash compensation.
Some quotes written by AY:
1) 3h 32min of this delay was due to technical fault occurred while landing at HEL the day before our BKK-HEL flight
2) The reason for the delay is "flap moving damper accumulator fault"
3) Fastest way to solve this situation was a replacement aircraft (I think this is ........, the delayed aircraft was OH-LWB and our flight was operated by OH-LWB. I don´t have the data for OH-LWA for 17JAN so can´t confirm this, but AY stated that the fault was in their newest A350 which was delivered December 30th 2015 = OH-LWB)
4) Additional 8min delay due to ATC restrictions in BKK
5) Additional 16min delay due to "exceptional headwinds"
= Total delay of 4h 2min which they admit
- Finnair has contacted Airbus. Airbus and the part manufacturer are solving this issue. Other carriers have had similar issues.
They offered same 300€ voucher (for two persons = 150€/pax) or 200€ cash.
What do you think about my options (must decide before 4th of July):
- Proceed further with KRIL without reply
- Proceed further with KRIL and send a reply including information about false statement about "replacement aircraft"
- Accept the 300€ voucher (I don´t think I will go this way)
Jun 16, 2016, 9:38 am
#122
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
OHLWA
2016-01-17 AY6 New York (JFK) Helsinki (HEL) 18:45 EDT 20:43 09:50 EEST Landed 10:50
2016-01-17 AY5 Helsinki (HEL) New York (JFK) 15:10 EEST 15:35 16:55 EDT Landed 16:56
2016-01-16 AY6 New York (JFK) Helsinki (HEL) 18:45 EDT 19:38 09:50 EEST Landed 10:01
2016-01-16 AY5 Helsinki (HEL) New York (JFK) 15:10 EEST 15:58 16:55 EDT Landed 17:14
2016-01-15 AY6 New York (JFK) Helsinki (HEL) 18:45 EDT 19:38 09:50 EEST Landed 09:42
2016-01-15 AY5 Helsinki (HEL) New York (JFK) 15:10 EEST 15:58 16:55 EDT Landed 17:21
OHLWB
2016-01-18 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 20:28 07:25 ICT Landed 09:34
2016-01-18 AY52 Beijing (PEK) Helsinki (HEL) 11:35 CST 13:24 15:25 EEST Landed 16:26
2016-01-17 AY51 Helsinki (HEL) Beijing (PEK) 19:00 EEST 22:58 07:50 CST Landed 11:09
2016-01-17 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 13:03 15:55 EEST Landed 19:51
2016-01-16 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 22:16 07:25 ICT Landed 11:06
2016-01-16 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 13:25 15:55 EEST Landed 19:43
2016-01-15 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 22:22 07:25 ICT Landed 11:36
OHLWC
2016-01-18 AY51 Helsinki (HEL) Beijing (PEK) 19:00 EEST 20:06 07:50 CST Landed 08:14
2016-01-18 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 09:39 15:55 EEST Landed 16:16
2016-01-18 AY89 Bangkok (BKK) - - - Unknown
2016-01-17 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 18:21 07:25 ICT Landed 07:05
2016-01-16 AY52 Beijing (PEK) Helsinki (HEL) - 12:33 - Landed 15:18
2016-01-15 AY51 Helsinki (HEL) Beijing (PEK) 19:00 EEST 19:57 07:50 CST Landed 08:20
First time "column" is scheduled dep (&time zone), second is actual dep, third scheduled arrival and last is actual landing time.
Newest A350 at that time was OHLWC, that was handed over on 30th December.
Information fr24 has is not always accurate, so don't trust these 100%. Hope this helps.
Last edited by Purjelentaja; Jun 16, 2016 at 11:29 am
Jun 16, 2016, 11:03 am
#123
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Gold
Posts: 428
This is data from flightradar24 of movements of those birds:
OHLWB
2016-01-17 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 13:03 15:55 EEST Landed 19:51
2016-01-16 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 22:16 07:25 ICT Landed 11:06
2016-01-16 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 13:25 15:55 EEST Landed 19:43
2016-01-15 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 22:22 07:25 ICT Landed 11:36
OHLWC
2016-01-17 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 18:21 07:25 ICT Landed 07:05
2016-01-16 AY52 Beijing (PEK) Helsinki (HEL) - 12:33 - Landed 15:18
2016-01-15 AY51 Helsinki (HEL) Beijing (PEK) 19:00 EEST 19:57 07:50 CST Landed 08:20
OHLWB
2016-01-17 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 13:03 15:55 EEST Landed 19:51
2016-01-16 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 22:16 07:25 ICT Landed 11:06
2016-01-16 AY90 Bangkok (BKK) Helsinki (HEL) 09:05 ICT 13:25 15:55 EEST Landed 19:43
2016-01-15 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 22:22 07:25 ICT Landed 11:36
OHLWC
2016-01-17 AY89 Helsinki (HEL) Bangkok (BKK) 18:00 EEST 18:21 07:25 ICT Landed 07:05
2016-01-16 AY52 Beijing (PEK) Helsinki (HEL) - 12:33 - Landed 15:18
2016-01-15 AY51 Helsinki (HEL) Beijing (PEK) 19:00 EEST 19:57 07:50 CST Landed 08:20
So it seems that they planned LWC for AY89 on 16JAN, but it failed at arrival from PEK. LWB couldn´t be used earlier while she was already almost 4hrs late in her previous BKK run
That was what the pilot on our flight also said, that they can´t catch up any delays on that route.
Jun 16, 2016, 11:30 am
#124
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+ Plat and several other cards
Posts: 645
Jun 19, 2016, 9:09 am
#125
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 4
pls help with compensation claim
Hi everyone, I am very new to this website, hope my question fits in this topic...
We had a group of students in China, travelling from Budapest to Helsinki and to Guangzhou.
They had their return flight scheduled for 15 June Wednesday, that was cancelled. We received a message from Finnair on Tuesday that their flight would be cancelled next morning "for technical reasons".
We managed to get the group home next day, on Thursday with the same flight, although after returning to Helsinki, the group had to be divided into two because some of the students got back to Budapest the same day, but some of them had to spend the night in Helsinki and got back to Budapest only on Friday.
We plan to file a compensation claim for the cancelled flight.
Am I right that first, we only have to fill in the feedback form on Finnair's website and that is all? And then wait for their reply?
One feedback form is enough for the whole group of students?
Is there anything important we should include?
Any help would be appreciated... Thank you
We had a group of students in China, travelling from Budapest to Helsinki and to Guangzhou.
They had their return flight scheduled for 15 June Wednesday, that was cancelled. We received a message from Finnair on Tuesday that their flight would be cancelled next morning "for technical reasons".
We managed to get the group home next day, on Thursday with the same flight, although after returning to Helsinki, the group had to be divided into two because some of the students got back to Budapest the same day, but some of them had to spend the night in Helsinki and got back to Budapest only on Friday.
We plan to file a compensation claim for the cancelled flight.
Am I right that first, we only have to fill in the feedback form on Finnair's website and that is all? And then wait for their reply?
One feedback form is enough for the whole group of students?
Is there anything important we should include?
Any help would be appreciated... Thank you
Jun 21, 2016, 8:58 am
#126
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,737
Welcome to FT Pedrus77!
Yes, you start by filling in the feedback from on the AY website. Then you wait a few weeks to get a reply that says "no"...
However, I am not really sure that you can do process claims for others – especially a big group. The compensations, should you receive any, will be paid directly to the people in question and not to the person who bought or paid the ticket. However, to get a written power of attorney from everyone concerned might suffice.
AY will not pay any compensation, though. No matter what happened, they will claim "extraordinary circumstances" and you would need to file a court case to get your compensation. In Finland, this would be expensice and risky. If there is a small claims procedure in Hungary, you might try your luck there.
Yes, you start by filling in the feedback from on the AY website. Then you wait a few weeks to get a reply that says "no"...
However, I am not really sure that you can do process claims for others – especially a big group. The compensations, should you receive any, will be paid directly to the people in question and not to the person who bought or paid the ticket. However, to get a written power of attorney from everyone concerned might suffice.
AY will not pay any compensation, though. No matter what happened, they will claim "extraordinary circumstances" and you would need to file a court case to get your compensation. In Finland, this would be expensice and risky. If there is a small claims procedure in Hungary, you might try your luck there.
Last edited by ffay005; Jun 22, 2016 at 2:17 pm Reason: typo
Jun 22, 2016, 11:46 am
#127
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 4
thanks for your reply ffay005! We filed the claim on behalf of the whole group and now waiting for the answer...
I have read all pages of this topic and I am not optimistic at all, but we will see what happens.
Thanks anyway for your help
I have read all pages of this topic and I am not optimistic at all, but we will see what happens.
Thanks anyway for your help
Jun 22, 2016, 1:16 pm
#128
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: HEL
Programs: lots of shiny metal cards
Posts: 14,104
Use the EU cross border small claims procedure. In Budapest
Fővárosi Törvényszék
Administrative address : Markó u. 27.
Postal code : 1055
City / Municipality : Budapest
Telephone : +36 1 354-6000
Fax : +36 1 354-6041
Web : http://fovarositorvenyszek.birosag.hu/
Postal address : Pf. 16.
Postal code (postal address) : 1363
City (postal address) : Budapest
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_...en.do?clang=en
Fővárosi Törvényszék
Administrative address : Markó u. 27.
Postal code : 1055
City / Municipality : Budapest
Telephone : +36 1 354-6000
Fax : +36 1 354-6041
Web : http://fovarositorvenyszek.birosag.hu/
Postal address : Pf. 16.
Postal code (postal address) : 1363
City (postal address) : Budapest
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_...en.do?clang=en
Jul 8, 2016, 2:48 am
#130
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 229
got a response from Finnair through Krill.
in the UK there are many firms doing all the efforts for you to get the compensation at a fee of 25%. Do they also do this in Finland?
The Consumer Disputes Board does not have the authority to resolve this complaint as ... is not a consumer
Passenger's Status
The passenger is not a consumer. The business class air ticket of The Passenger from Helsinki to Beijing has been bought by his employer ...
Therefore the consumer disputes board does not have the authority to resolve this dispute.
Finnair Legal
Passenger's Status
The passenger is not a consumer. The business class air ticket of The Passenger from Helsinki to Beijing has been bought by his employer ...
Therefore the consumer disputes board does not have the authority to resolve this dispute.
Finnair Legal
in the UK there are many firms doing all the efforts for you to get the compensation at a fee of 25%. Do they also do this in Finland?
Jul 12, 2016, 3:32 am
#131
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 4
Dear All,
we got reply from Finnair today. They gave the whole group the EU compensation: EUR 600 per passenger or EUR 800 Finnair voucher.
Everything went surprisingly smoothly and easily. They did not refer to "extraordinary circumstances" but admitted the technical fault and agreed with the claim.
Thank you for your help and also many thanks Finnair
we got reply from Finnair today. They gave the whole group the EU compensation: EUR 600 per passenger or EUR 800 Finnair voucher.
Everything went surprisingly smoothly and easily. They did not refer to "extraordinary circumstances" but admitted the technical fault and agreed with the claim.
Thank you for your help and also many thanks Finnair
Jul 12, 2016, 5:10 am
#132
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HEL
Programs: AY, SK, TK
Posts: 7,591
Dear All,
we got reply from Finnair today. They gave the whole group the EU compensation: EUR 600 per passenger or EUR 800 Finnair voucher.
Everything went surprisingly smoothly and easily. They did not refer to "extraordinary circumstances" but admitted the technical fault and agreed with the claim.
Thank you for your help and also many thanks Finnair
we got reply from Finnair today. They gave the whole group the EU compensation: EUR 600 per passenger or EUR 800 Finnair voucher.
Everything went surprisingly smoothly and easily. They did not refer to "extraordinary circumstances" but admitted the technical fault and agreed with the claim.
Thank you for your help and also many thanks Finnair
Jul 18, 2016, 2:13 am
#133
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
Another case with Finnair: me and my wife started our honeymoon trip with HEL to HKG March 18th this year, and the flight was delayed 8 hours. We've been fighting with Finnair to get the EU compensation, and all they've offered is two 200 EUR vouchers. Once again, the reason was "unexpected failure" in a brand new A350.
We've discussed with Kuluttajaneuvonta, and they instructed us to file a complaint to Kuluttajariitalautakunta (which we will do). According to the lady on the phone, there are plans to file an actual lawsuit, if they get a required amount of similar cases. I got the feeling, that people have really had enough of Finnair's arrogance with cases like this. I know we sure have, and after this experience, we will avoid Finnair at all costs in the future.
We've discussed with Kuluttajaneuvonta, and they instructed us to file a complaint to Kuluttajariitalautakunta (which we will do). According to the lady on the phone, there are plans to file an actual lawsuit, if they get a required amount of similar cases. I got the feeling, that people have really had enough of Finnair's arrogance with cases like this. I know we sure have, and after this experience, we will avoid Finnair at all costs in the future.
Jul 18, 2016, 3:22 am
#134
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,167
The 8 hour delays on HKG route is infamous and have been going on for years. It is safe to say that there are tens of thousands of travellers who have experienced the arrogance on this route alone. With the pattern of 2-4 such delays a month it should be trivial for any court to establish this is not extraordinary but a part of the business model.
And this is also the reason they don't pay. Let's say there are 500 valid claims each month on AY69 to HKG alone, you can do the math. They simply can't afford it.
And this is also the reason they don't pay. Let's say there are 500 valid claims each month on AY69 to HKG alone, you can do the math. They simply can't afford it.