Nov 4, 2015, 9:05 am
Last edit by: OH-LGG
Finnair (AY) company website dedicated for A350 fleet can be found HERE
!!
bold= new cabin
!!
A350 Deliveries
OH-LWA (msn 18) delivered 7th Oct 2015 is the first Finnair A350 and started long-haul operations as AY57 to PVG on 21st Nov 2015.
OH-LWB (msn 19) was delivered 14th Dec 2015, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 19th Dec 2015.
OH-LWC (msn 20) was delivered 31st Dec 2015, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 3rd Jan 2016.
OH-LWD (msn 22) was delivered 25th Mar 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 28th Mar 2016.
OH-LWE (msn 23) was delivered 29th Apr 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 1st May 2016
OH-LWF (msn 28) was delivered 25th Jun 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 27th Jun 2016
OH-LWG (msn 51) was delivered 29th Sep 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 30th Sep 2016
OH-LWH (msn 97) was delivered 04th Apr 2017, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 5th Apr 2017
OH-LWI (msn 104) was delivered 02nd Jun 2017, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 5th Jun 2017
OH-LWK (msn 113) was delivered 30th Jun 2017, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 3rd Jul 2017
OH-LWL (msn 134) was delivered on 22th Sep 2017, started as AY 831 to LHR on 27th Sep 2017 and started longhauls on 29th Sep 2017 as AY89 to BKK.
OH-LWM (msn 264) was delivered on 13th Dec 2018, started long-haul operations as AY73 to NRT on 19th Dec 2018
OH-LWN (msn 273) was delivered on 13th Feb 2019, started long-haul operations as AY73 to NRT on 16th Feb 2019
OH-LWO (msn 300) was delivered on 26th Apr 2019, started long haul operations as AY141 to BKK on 29th Apr 2019
OH-LWP (msn 392) was delivered on 10th Feb 2020, started long haul operations as AY141 to BKK on 13th Feb 2020
OH-LWR (msn 410) was delivered on 1st Sep 2020, started long haul operations as AY141 to BKK on 8th Sep 2020
OH-LWS (msn 516) was delivered on 29th Dec 2021, started long haul operations as AY87 to PVG (cargo only) on 24th Jan 2022, first pax service on 28th Feb 2022 as AY9
Seating
2 different configurations exists.
J/46 Y/251: Features 2 J cabins. First 8 birds and 12th(LWA-LWH, LWM) has this config
J/32 Y/304: The minicabin is removed and replaced with Y seating. Babycots in 1L and 41L. Birds 9-11, 13, 15 (LWI-LWL, LWN, LWP) has this config, a.k.a. marsuhäkki config.
Complete seatmap and layout of config 1 can be found HERE and config 2 is here.
Business Class features Zodiac Cirrus III full-flat bed seats in a 1-2-1 abreast config, all seats with direct access to the aisle. Config1 has two business class cabins, row1-8 and 9-12, while config2 only has one (row 1-8). Early reviews has preferred front cabin over minicabin, and for best window seat, row 2 or 1 may be preferable, row 1 for aisle seats.
As operations of A350 has matured, it has become practice to set the snack-bar on top of the cupboard in front of row 1, making row 1 experience a lot of foot traffic and noise.
Config2 also suffers from low toilet/pax quota (2 toilets / 32 pax) as the aft toilets has been assigned to the high density Y cabin, further contributing to high foot traffic in the front of the cabin. For these reasons, a seat further to the back may be preferable. However, all service start in the front and it will usually take a long time to get your meal in row 8.
For couples travelling together there is no clear choice. DH-seats are tilted towards each-other, but you still will not see the other person without leaning forwards. Seat across aisles (AD and HL respectively) has no barriers between them, but are tilted the wrong way and rows are also slightly misaligned.
Economy Comfort on A350 has the exact same seats as in economy, but with ≈4" inches more legroom. They also come with noise cancelling headphones, 1h internet, priority boarding and a small amenity kit.
Finnair platinums and OWE members can select these seats for free. (OWE must call to do so). Other passengers can select comfort seats for a fee, and seats are also sold after boarding.
On config1 comfort is row 21-25, while on config 2 comfort is row 21-24 + 25ABC and 25JKL. Row 21 is bulkhead and has slightly more space, as no seat reclines into the space. None of the configs has that super-space found on some retrofitted A330 though.
On config1 21AC and 21JL are the only paired seats making them preferable, but if you want to have IFE screen in the seat in front of you, pick row 22. On config2 all seats are in groups of 3, and it is also recommended to stay away from row 21 entirely, as it is entangled with the toilets.
In terms of space there are no seats in comfort cabin on either config that beats exit row 41A/C/J/L or 42A/L.
Economy Class features 3-3-3 abreast slimline seating with 32" pitch. The best seats are row 41 with most legroom on A/C/J/L (but they lack window), and row 42 A/L.
These are either labled "extra legroom" or "exit row" and are selectable with status or for a fee.
Economy cabin offers USB for charge - no AC outlets.
In-Flight Entertainment
IFE system is upgraded. Bigger screens, wider selection of movies and music, route mapper and control options. You can watch a movie from start to landing. You will have Bose noise-cancelling earphones in business class and in Economy comfort, and earplugs in economy class.
Wifi: you will see a code (in business class) in the screen when you open the IFE and select language. In economy class, you need to ask cabin crew for a voucher code if you are OWS/OWE, otherwise it costs you 7,95€ per hour, 11,95€ per three hours or 19,95€ for the whole flight. It may take some time until up in the air to get it started. Log in is required, once you have created an account and password, the system will recognize you next time.
Quality issues and early refurbishment
The seats in business class have had many quality issues from day one. Apart from some inherent problems with the seat design, there are also malfunctions and abnormal wear.
As every row has slightly different pitch, fittings and trimmings have had to de adopted manually. Apart from causing delays in delivery, this also has led to many things in the cabin tend to come loose, to squeak and to break.
In june 2017 it was announced that Airbus has accepted responsibility for the quality issues and will replace every seat on every plane delivered until that point in time (9 birds).
The refurbish will take place during the first round of major maintenance round, scheduled to start later this year.
There is no information if there will be any changes made at the same time (addressing complaints about cramped seats and missing stowage space for example), but most likely this is treated as a warranty action and so cabin will be equipped with the exact same seats and layout, albeit with a newer batch of seats.
More details and discussion:
FAM (Familiarization) flights were ongoing within European destinations until the first A350 aircraft was put on regular long-haul service on 21st November 2015. Here is a list of FAM flights quoted by a FT'er.
The "famous" introduction list with initial experiences can be found in THIS thread
Discussion about the first long-haul services and experiences can be found in another THREAD
Links to many trip reports can be found in https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/finn...ion-links.html.
!!
bold= new cabin
!!
A350 Deliveries
OH-LWA (msn 18) delivered 7th Oct 2015 is the first Finnair A350 and started long-haul operations as AY57 to PVG on 21st Nov 2015.
OH-LWB (msn 19) was delivered 14th Dec 2015, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 19th Dec 2015.
OH-LWC (msn 20) was delivered 31st Dec 2015, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 3rd Jan 2016.
OH-LWD (msn 22) was delivered 25th Mar 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 28th Mar 2016.
OH-LWE (msn 23) was delivered 29th Apr 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 1st May 2016
OH-LWF (msn 28) was delivered 25th Jun 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 27th Jun 2016
OH-LWG (msn 51) was delivered 29th Sep 2016, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 30th Sep 2016
OH-LWH (msn 97) was delivered 04th Apr 2017, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 5th Apr 2017
OH-LWI (msn 104) was delivered 02nd Jun 2017, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 5th Jun 2017
OH-LWK (msn 113) was delivered 30th Jun 2017, started long-haul operations as AY89 to BKK on 3rd Jul 2017
OH-LWL (msn 134) was delivered on 22th Sep 2017, started as AY 831 to LHR on 27th Sep 2017 and started longhauls on 29th Sep 2017 as AY89 to BKK.
OH-LWM (msn 264) was delivered on 13th Dec 2018, started long-haul operations as AY73 to NRT on 19th Dec 2018
OH-LWN (msn 273) was delivered on 13th Feb 2019, started long-haul operations as AY73 to NRT on 16th Feb 2019
OH-LWO (msn 300) was delivered on 26th Apr 2019, started long haul operations as AY141 to BKK on 29th Apr 2019
OH-LWP (msn 392) was delivered on 10th Feb 2020, started long haul operations as AY141 to BKK on 13th Feb 2020
OH-LWR (msn 410) was delivered on 1st Sep 2020, started long haul operations as AY141 to BKK on 8th Sep 2020
OH-LWS (msn 516) was delivered on 29th Dec 2021, started long haul operations as AY87 to PVG (cargo only) on 24th Jan 2022, first pax service on 28th Feb 2022 as AY9
Seating
2 different configurations exists.
J/46 Y/251: Features 2 J cabins. First 8 birds and 12th(LWA-LWH, LWM) has this config
J/32 Y/304: The minicabin is removed and replaced with Y seating. Babycots in 1L and 41L. Birds 9-11, 13, 15 (LWI-LWL, LWN, LWP) has this config, a.k.a. marsuhäkki config.
Complete seatmap and layout of config 1 can be found HERE and config 2 is here.
Business Class features Zodiac Cirrus III full-flat bed seats in a 1-2-1 abreast config, all seats with direct access to the aisle. Config1 has two business class cabins, row1-8 and 9-12, while config2 only has one (row 1-8). Early reviews has preferred front cabin over minicabin, and for best window seat, row 2 or 1 may be preferable, row 1 for aisle seats.
As operations of A350 has matured, it has become practice to set the snack-bar on top of the cupboard in front of row 1, making row 1 experience a lot of foot traffic and noise.
Config2 also suffers from low toilet/pax quota (2 toilets / 32 pax) as the aft toilets has been assigned to the high density Y cabin, further contributing to high foot traffic in the front of the cabin. For these reasons, a seat further to the back may be preferable. However, all service start in the front and it will usually take a long time to get your meal in row 8.
For couples travelling together there is no clear choice. DH-seats are tilted towards each-other, but you still will not see the other person without leaning forwards. Seat across aisles (AD and HL respectively) has no barriers between them, but are tilted the wrong way and rows are also slightly misaligned.
Economy Comfort on A350 has the exact same seats as in economy, but with ≈4" inches more legroom. They also come with noise cancelling headphones, 1h internet, priority boarding and a small amenity kit.
Finnair platinums and OWE members can select these seats for free. (OWE must call to do so). Other passengers can select comfort seats for a fee, and seats are also sold after boarding.
On config1 comfort is row 21-25, while on config 2 comfort is row 21-24 + 25ABC and 25JKL. Row 21 is bulkhead and has slightly more space, as no seat reclines into the space. None of the configs has that super-space found on some retrofitted A330 though.
On config1 21AC and 21JL are the only paired seats making them preferable, but if you want to have IFE screen in the seat in front of you, pick row 22. On config2 all seats are in groups of 3, and it is also recommended to stay away from row 21 entirely, as it is entangled with the toilets.
In terms of space there are no seats in comfort cabin on either config that beats exit row 41A/C/J/L or 42A/L.
Economy Class features 3-3-3 abreast slimline seating with 32" pitch. The best seats are row 41 with most legroom on A/C/J/L (but they lack window), and row 42 A/L.
These are either labled "extra legroom" or "exit row" and are selectable with status or for a fee.
Economy cabin offers USB for charge - no AC outlets.
In-Flight Entertainment
IFE system is upgraded. Bigger screens, wider selection of movies and music, route mapper and control options. You can watch a movie from start to landing. You will have Bose noise-cancelling earphones in business class and in Economy comfort, and earplugs in economy class.
Wifi: you will see a code (in business class) in the screen when you open the IFE and select language. In economy class, you need to ask cabin crew for a voucher code if you are OWS/OWE, otherwise it costs you 7,95€ per hour, 11,95€ per three hours or 19,95€ for the whole flight. It may take some time until up in the air to get it started. Log in is required, once you have created an account and password, the system will recognize you next time.
Quality issues and early refurbishment
The seats in business class have had many quality issues from day one. Apart from some inherent problems with the seat design, there are also malfunctions and abnormal wear.
As every row has slightly different pitch, fittings and trimmings have had to de adopted manually. Apart from causing delays in delivery, this also has led to many things in the cabin tend to come loose, to squeak and to break.
In june 2017 it was announced that Airbus has accepted responsibility for the quality issues and will replace every seat on every plane delivered until that point in time (9 birds).
The refurbish will take place during the first round of major maintenance round, scheduled to start later this year.
There is no information if there will be any changes made at the same time (addressing complaints about cramped seats and missing stowage space for example), but most likely this is treated as a warranty action and so cabin will be equipped with the exact same seats and layout, albeit with a newer batch of seats.
More details and discussion:
FAM (Familiarization) flights were ongoing within European destinations until the first A350 aircraft was put on regular long-haul service on 21st November 2015. Here is a list of FAM flights quoted by a FT'er.
The "famous" introduction list with initial experiences can be found in THIS thread
Discussion about the first long-haul services and experiences can be found in another THREAD
Links to many trip reports can be found in https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/finn...ion-links.html.
Finnair A350 XWB master thread
Feb 12, 2017, 4:22 am
#856
Join Date: Jul 2014
Programs: AY Platinum
Posts: 287
I'm sure some kind of universal mounting system could be come up with. Even right now, I can easily shove the magnetic cover of my iPad Mini into the magazine holder and it works perfectly (on aircraft without IFE). If Finnair provided a way to access the flight map and cameras through the browser, I would probably be completely ok with the weight savings from removing the IFE.
I would *not* accept (only) an app, because that would force me to always choose the tablet over a laptop.
As for the business model, I'm not convinced QF's approach as described by ojala and Intuition is the best. It seems wasteful to have an iPad in each seat pocket. I would let most people use their own devices and then rent an iPad to the rest for 9,99.
I would *not* accept (only) an app, because that would force me to always choose the tablet over a laptop.
As for the business model, I'm not convinced QF's approach as described by ojala and Intuition is the best. It seems wasteful to have an iPad in each seat pocket. I would let most people use their own devices and then rent an iPad to the rest for 9,99.
Last edited by heatsink; Feb 12, 2017 at 4:37 am
Feb 12, 2017, 5:21 am
#857
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 938
People are different - some will always prefer to 'bring their own' onboard; whatever it might be... devices, content, food, pillows, tootbrushes etc.
I'm used to certain services being included in the price of a long haul flight ticket, especially in C. Watching movies is a great way of spending awake time on flights and I appreciate the airline offering that service.
I flew QR on a 777 last week and they had several Hollywood movies that had premiered in cinemas in the past few months. Obviously for those who find this not enough it is indeed a good idea to bring your own entertainment.
I'm used to certain services being included in the price of a long haul flight ticket, especially in C. Watching movies is a great way of spending awake time on flights and I appreciate the airline offering that service.
I just flew QR F A380 and there was not a single movie to watch (I'm not going to watch some '95 movie again). I didn't watch any movies on a recent EK A380 flight either. It doesn't really matter if there's 100 or 1000 movies, it's like an App Store, only the recent good ones matter.
Feb 14, 2017, 6:05 am
#858
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: Star Alliance-Flying Blue- One World
Posts: 3
To continue my experiences, this time sitting in the front cabin row 4.
First, the IFE was jammed from the first minute, but when asked, it was reseted in a second unlike on those old 340 planes ^ A funny notation though about the "route map"; when you zoom in the globe, the picture of the plane fills quite the whole screen masking the map altogether
The best seats from the window alignment point of view seem to be row 2 (best), then 6, then 5 and the rest have one and a half window except row 1 which has only 1 window.
Row 1 being bulkhead, you will not be kicking anyone and at row 8 nobody will be kicking you during sleeping mode, but the proximity of galley might be bothersome for somebody.
In the front business cabin there are no lockers in the middle section, making the cabin feel more spacious than the minicabin. The lockers on the sides are quite sufficient anyway if people stick to carry-on rules.
There are 2 lavatories in the front, and the right-hand side one will be earmarked for ladies only (not yet during FAM flights) I was told. It is identical to the left one, but it will have some ladies amenities. The front lavatories have a window and a top-down mirror, whereas the minicabin lavatories don’t have those, but the minicabin lavatories are slightly bigger and have a latchable babycare-table.
There seems to be no basement (typo intended
) seats and the cabin crew did not know when I asked. The only bassinet seat seems to be row 41 in the back of the bus.
Wifi works, and you will see a code (in business class) in the screen when you open the IFE and select language. In economy, you need to ask cabin crew for a voucher code if you are OWS/OWE. It may take some time until up in the air to get it started. Wifi is slow and I would not buy it for a cent being that slow. The log in is clumbersome and slow too, requiring you to create account and password.
Amenity kit in business will be the same Marimekko purse as on other fleet as far as cabin crew could tell. Noise-cancelling earphones will be upgraded on A350, CC told me they will have Bose brand once longhaul starts (only earplug during FAM).
The kitchen in the minicabin side is now only used for catering but will be installed as a “self-service café” on upcoming longhauls.
The number of of cabin crew personnel will vary according to load factor, but standard will be four persons. During FAM flights there has been new crew coming in all the time and they have told me there is no “special key group” for A350, but instead lot of people will be trained.
The seats already show some wear due to the color of the materials chosen.
(PS. if someone is so kind to send me PM how to add photos, I could add some photos about details. I have seen many bad photos here (including me) and I want to avoid spam, thank you)
First, the IFE was jammed from the first minute, but when asked, it was reseted in a second unlike on those old 340 planes ^ A funny notation though about the "route map"; when you zoom in the globe, the picture of the plane fills quite the whole screen masking the map altogether
The best seats from the window alignment point of view seem to be row 2 (best), then 6, then 5 and the rest have one and a half window except row 1 which has only 1 window.
Row 1 being bulkhead, you will not be kicking anyone and at row 8 nobody will be kicking you during sleeping mode, but the proximity of galley might be bothersome for somebody.
In the front business cabin there are no lockers in the middle section, making the cabin feel more spacious than the minicabin. The lockers on the sides are quite sufficient anyway if people stick to carry-on rules.
There are 2 lavatories in the front, and the right-hand side one will be earmarked for ladies only (not yet during FAM flights) I was told. It is identical to the left one, but it will have some ladies amenities. The front lavatories have a window and a top-down mirror, whereas the minicabin lavatories don’t have those, but the minicabin lavatories are slightly bigger and have a latchable babycare-table.
There seems to be no basement (typo intended
) seats and the cabin crew did not know when I asked. The only bassinet seat seems to be row 41 in the back of the bus.Wifi works, and you will see a code (in business class) in the screen when you open the IFE and select language. In economy, you need to ask cabin crew for a voucher code if you are OWS/OWE. It may take some time until up in the air to get it started. Wifi is slow and I would not buy it for a cent being that slow. The log in is clumbersome and slow too, requiring you to create account and password.
Amenity kit in business will be the same Marimekko purse as on other fleet as far as cabin crew could tell. Noise-cancelling earphones will be upgraded on A350, CC told me they will have Bose brand once longhaul starts (only earplug during FAM).
The kitchen in the minicabin side is now only used for catering but will be installed as a “self-service café” on upcoming longhauls.
The number of of cabin crew personnel will vary according to load factor, but standard will be four persons. During FAM flights there has been new crew coming in all the time and they have told me there is no “special key group” for A350, but instead lot of people will be trained.
The seats already show some wear due to the color of the materials chosen.
(PS. if someone is so kind to send me PM how to add photos, I could add some photos about details. I have seen many bad photos here (including me) and I want to avoid spam, thank you)
Feb 14, 2017, 11:53 am
#859
Join Date: May 2015
Location: ATL/MCO
Programs: Costco Executive, RaceTrac Sultan of Soda, Chick-fil-A Red
Posts: 5,661
Feb 25, 2017, 7:59 am
#861
Join Date: Jul 2014
Programs: AY Platinum
Posts: 287
Feb 25, 2017, 8:33 am
#862
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Going around Russian airspace
Posts: 621
Feb 25, 2017, 8:45 am
#863
Join Date: Jul 2014
Programs: AY Platinum
Posts: 287
I think the row numbering is kinda weird, though. Wouldn't it make more sense if ABC and JKL just started from 22 rather than being misaligned for the entire cabin?
Feb 25, 2017, 10:24 am
#864
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,171
Very odd looking indeed. If the schematics are true, it would have made more sense end comfort at row 24 except for keeping 25D-H comfort.
It will be interesting to hear from those who travel this one, regarding leg room at row 21 and what the last rows of comfort looks like.
By the posted seat map, it looks like only 2 lavs for J cabin, as the curtain encloses the lavs at door 2 as a part of Y cabin instead as a part of the galley.
21D-H looks to be the worst seats on the plane, right smack between the lavs.
It will be interesting to hear from those who travel this one, regarding leg room at row 21 and what the last rows of comfort looks like.
By the posted seat map, it looks like only 2 lavs for J cabin, as the curtain encloses the lavs at door 2 as a part of Y cabin instead as a part of the galley.
21D-H looks to be the worst seats on the plane, right smack between the lavs.
Feb 25, 2017, 2:57 pm
#866
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,171
If the pdf seat map is to scale (they have been pretty much in the past) there certainly is something strange with middle D-H seating. It looks like the pitch is shorter in middle than on the sides.
In the front of the cabin, 22D-H is aligned with row 21. Going back, you can see a misalignment appear and increase. By row 38, the middle seats are at 39,5, ie the offset is 1,5 rows, ir they have crammed half a row extra in. The same goes on in the aft cabin but less apparent as the cabin is shorter.
This is not present on the earlier A350 (LWA et al) where there is an small offset but it is constant throughout the cabin.
So I would say that they decided to have a worse pitch in middle seats. Either they are thinking no one will notice, or they are thinking middle seats are crappy anyway so people won't be bothered. Or they are hoping to collect more seat selection fees as people needs to stay out of those E seats!
In the front of the cabin, 22D-H is aligned with row 21. Going back, you can see a misalignment appear and increase. By row 38, the middle seats are at 39,5, ie the offset is 1,5 rows, ir they have crammed half a row extra in. The same goes on in the aft cabin but less apparent as the cabin is shorter.
This is not present on the earlier A350 (LWA et al) where there is an small offset but it is constant throughout the cabin.
So I would say that they decided to have a worse pitch in middle seats. Either they are thinking no one will notice, or they are thinking middle seats are crappy anyway so people won't be bothered. Or they are hoping to collect more seat selection fees as people needs to stay out of those E seats!
Feb 25, 2017, 7:56 pm
#867
Join Date: Jul 2014
Programs: AY Platinum
Posts: 287
In the front of the cabin, 22D-H is aligned with row 21. Going back, you can see a misalignment appear and increase. By row 38, the middle seats are at 39,5, ie the offset is 1,5 rows, ir they have crammed half a row extra in. The same goes on in the aft cabin but less apparent as the cabin is shorter.
If the drawing is to scale and seats can be adjusted in 0,5" increments, I would say we can be 99% sure that the standard 31" pitch would've left space unused in the middle, and they decided to go to 30,5" instead.
This isn't unprecedented. Isn't the back of the cabin slightly tighter on some A320 variants too, because the standard pitch would've left like 0,9 rows of space at the end and they just needed a little more?
Last edited by heatsink; Feb 25, 2017 at 9:15 pm
Feb 25, 2017, 9:28 pm
#868
Join Date: Jul 2014
Programs: AY Platinum
Posts: 287
The number of Y passengers requires that, really. With only 32J, I don't think it's going to be a huge issue.
This version is going to carry an impressive number of passengers on economy-heavy routes. I bet they can't wait to get it into service.
Feb 26, 2017, 2:23 am
#869
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,171
Well, yes 53 extra Y pax certainly motivates more lavatories. Trouble is, they increased no. of pax by 13% and kept the same number of toilets. In that situation, they obvious needed to "re-distribute" at least one lav from J to Y.
On the J/46 Y/251 the lav to pax ratio is 1:11,5 and 1:42,8 respectively.
On the J/32 Y/304 the lav to pax ratio is 1:16 and 1:38 respectively.
So I see that situation, but what I am upset with is that AY doesn't seem to understand that the chase for higher density is a numbers game that just keeps on introducing worse and worse flying experiences. The higher number of pax made the toilet situation worse overall, but they decided to let J pax pay for it.
This is my personal take, might not be what the markets thinks, but this certainly influences my purchasing decisions:
Since the costs are mainly fixed, cost per pax is highly dependent on how many pax you squeeze in: Cost is linearly dependent on cabin space/pax. There are some variable costs, but they are negligible compared to aircraft lease, fuel, crew, airfield costs et.c.
I pay 4 times as much as a Y traveller. If I get 4 times as much space as a Y pax, then my seat wasn't overpriced nor underpriced. If I get 3x the space of a Y traveller, it is technically overpriced and there must be other motivators, like excellent service. If I get only 2x the space of Y, then I don't think any motivators in the world are enough.
The older A350 has J 78"x21" and Y 31"x18" making space per pax roughly 3:1 (1638 sq in : 558 sq in). The pax/lav comparison is 3,6:1 in the old A350 and becoming 2,75:1 in the new config.
So trying to value Finnair business class offer, going by the 3:1 number and longhaul Y tix generally available around 500€; Then J tix should be around 1500€ to be fairly priced.
They are sometimes, but they are also often in the 2000-3000€ span, while it seems Y tix are now more often offered in the 300-400€ range. For example, ARN-China is currently offered at 375€.
This means that if I buy J tix from AY at this pricing, I am subsidising Finnair's strategy to go for the LCC crowd in the back, a game I am not willing to participate in.
On the J/46 Y/251 the lav to pax ratio is 1:11,5 and 1:42,8 respectively.
On the J/32 Y/304 the lav to pax ratio is 1:16 and 1:38 respectively.
So I see that situation, but what I am upset with is that AY doesn't seem to understand that the chase for higher density is a numbers game that just keeps on introducing worse and worse flying experiences. The higher number of pax made the toilet situation worse overall, but they decided to let J pax pay for it.
This is my personal take, might not be what the markets thinks, but this certainly influences my purchasing decisions:
Since the costs are mainly fixed, cost per pax is highly dependent on how many pax you squeeze in: Cost is linearly dependent on cabin space/pax. There are some variable costs, but they are negligible compared to aircraft lease, fuel, crew, airfield costs et.c.
I pay 4 times as much as a Y traveller. If I get 4 times as much space as a Y pax, then my seat wasn't overpriced nor underpriced. If I get 3x the space of a Y traveller, it is technically overpriced and there must be other motivators, like excellent service. If I get only 2x the space of Y, then I don't think any motivators in the world are enough.
The older A350 has J 78"x21" and Y 31"x18" making space per pax roughly 3:1 (1638 sq in : 558 sq in). The pax/lav comparison is 3,6:1 in the old A350 and becoming 2,75:1 in the new config.
So trying to value Finnair business class offer, going by the 3:1 number and longhaul Y tix generally available around 500€; Then J tix should be around 1500€ to be fairly priced.
They are sometimes, but they are also often in the 2000-3000€ span, while it seems Y tix are now more often offered in the 300-400€ range. For example, ARN-China is currently offered at 375€.
This means that if I buy J tix from AY at this pricing, I am subsidising Finnair's strategy to go for the LCC crowd in the back, a game I am not willing to participate in.
Last edited by intuition; Feb 26, 2017 at 2:36 am
Feb 26, 2017, 2:40 am
#870
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,171
By the way, SK flies A330 and A340 with only 2 lavs for 32 and 40 J pax respectively. This is not a good situation, and a noticeably worse flying experience (in an otherwise very nice J cabin.
(They do have a third toilet in the front which would have made the situation better, but they reserve it for crew!)
(They do have a third toilet in the front which would have made the situation better, but they reserve it for crew!)