Jan 23, 2019, 9:42 am
Last edit by: AhogZ
This Wikipost is community-maintained and For Information Only. Note that not all information may be up to date and should be used at your own risk.
Safe - Immediate turnaround is easy, i.e. according to experience it is possible to reach departure gate quickly and without extra security check when doing same plane turnaround.
Intermediate - Immediate turnaround is doable, but requires e.g. extra security check.
Risky - Immediate turnaround not recommended. (See notes.)
TO KEEP THE WIKI AS COHERENT AS POSSIBLE, PLEASE USE "SAFE", "INTERMEDIATE" OR "RISKY" APPROPRIATELY! (I.e. no "Safe" for stations that require any kind of security or transfer check, not to mention going landside, etc.)
Immediate turnaround information for European AY destinations:
ACE: ?
AGP: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.) Details here from August 2022
ALC: Intermediate, Arrivals pour from jetbridge to "funnel pathway" which takes people to baggage claim, but one can look for "Transfer" signage and take escalator up to the gate area. No checkpoints.
AMS: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
ARN: Safe / Intermediate (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate, except gate 62 arrival pours to baggage claim. ATR flights may be riskier if one ends up with a bus gate.)
ATH: Intermediate at best
AYT: ?
BCN: No direct turnarounds due to operated by IB.
BER: ?
BGO: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
BLL: ?
BMA: Safe (Transfer door is before going to the terminal exit and boarding will not start before the incoming plane is empty.)
BRU: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
BUD: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
CDG: ?
CFU: ?
CHQ: Risky (To landside first and security needed. Long lines possibile.)
CPH: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
CTA: ?
DBV: ?
DUB: ?
DUS: ?
EDI: ? (Security check required for sure.)
FCO: Intermediate / Risky. Bus transportation can cause long walks.
FNC: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight. Mobile BP not available, obtain a BP from HEL.)
FRA: Safe (Even with the bus from stand you can make it.)
FUE: ?
GDN: Risky (Providing it is ATR by Norra, apron position, walking / bussing to the arrivals, queue security (can be very long), sprint upstairs to the gate.)
GOT: Safe / Intermediate(At least on tube arrival, after exit from the tube to the terminal area, turn around and you are at the departure gate. No info on possible bus gates though.)
GVA: ?
GZP: ?
HAJ: Safe (Arrival at departure gate)
HAM: ?
HER: ?
IBZ: ?
INN: Intermediate / Risky (To landside first and then security. No airside transit.)
IVL: Safe, arrivals pour into the gate area.
JOE: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
JSI: ?
JTR: ?
JYV: ?
KAJ: ?
KAO: ?
KEF: ?
KEM: ?
KGS: ?
KOK: ?
KRK: Intermediate (AY rarely has a jetty position so bus, arrivals then go upstairs to departures for security, there is a fast track for OW elites - not well signposted - separate B/Pass scanner to the left)
KTT: ?
KUO: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
LHR: Intermediate (Need to go via Flight Connections to reclear security, which may take time depending on the time of the day.)
LIS: ?
LIN: Safe, arrivals pour into departures.
LJU: ?
LPA: ?
LYS: ?
MAD: No direct turnarounds due to operated by IB.
MAH: ?
MAN: Intermediate/Risky, requires reclearing security.
MHQ: ?
MSQ: ?
MUC: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
MXP: Intermediate / Risky (Arrivals come into a different floor, transfer requires walking through a transfer point and distances are quite long.)
NAP: ?
NCE: ?
OSL: Safe / Intermediate (D gates pours directly to departures. E gates also pours to departure gate, follow transit arrow, automatic gate door will open during "normal" hours. IF door doesn't open go upstairs try the transfer security. Very rare reports of stand arrival with bus to exit, but should still be doable, security is usually fast and short distances.)
OUL: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
PFO: ?
PMI: ?
PRG: Safe (From arrivals walk up to departures to departure gate.)
PVK: ?
RHO: Risky (Arrivals pour to baggage claim, security check usually has long lines before you get to the departure hall.)
RIX: Risky. After deplaning, you walk to the terminal, but boarding is done with buses. My flight was delayed, and they started boarding before the plane was even there.
RMI: ?
RVN: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
SPU: ?
SZG: ?
TAY: ?
TFS: ?
TLL: Risky (May have a remote stand arrival, when departing flight has been boarded into a bus with boarding gate already closed.)
TLV: ?
TOS: ?
UME: ?
VAA: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
VBY: ?
VCE: ?
VIE: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
VNO: Risky. (Departing pax board bus when arriving pax still deplaning. Connection corridor available but not sure how straightforward it is).
VRN: ?
WAW: Safe (Arrivals pour to departure gate.)
ZRH: Safe (When exiting the bridge, you are under the gates and there are inclined speedwalks that bring back to the gates upstairs.)
Immediate turnaround information for selected longhaul AY destinations:
DEL: Intermediate (There's plenty of time for the obligatory visit to the transit desk and security. However, you'll need a self-printed visa confirmation to show the gate agent at HEL.)
DOH: ?
DXB: Intermediate (Follow "connections" to security downstairs and after that go to transfer desk if needed.)
JFK: Intermediate (Generous time with the new schedule, but you'll need to clear US immigration so ESTA or visa is needed.)
NRT: Intermediate (OLCI and mobile BP works, no need to go landside. There's transfer security, though.)
Safe - Immediate turnaround is easy, i.e. according to experience it is possible to reach departure gate quickly and without extra security check when doing same plane turnaround.
Intermediate - Immediate turnaround is doable, but requires e.g. extra security check.
Risky - Immediate turnaround not recommended. (See notes.)
TO KEEP THE WIKI AS COHERENT AS POSSIBLE, PLEASE USE "SAFE", "INTERMEDIATE" OR "RISKY" APPROPRIATELY! (I.e. no "Safe" for stations that require any kind of security or transfer check, not to mention going landside, etc.)
Immediate turnaround information for European AY destinations:
ACE: ?
AGP: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.) Details here from August 2022
ALC: Intermediate, Arrivals pour from jetbridge to "funnel pathway" which takes people to baggage claim, but one can look for "Transfer" signage and take escalator up to the gate area. No checkpoints.
AMS: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
ARN: Safe / Intermediate (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate, except gate 62 arrival pours to baggage claim. ATR flights may be riskier if one ends up with a bus gate.)
ATH: Intermediate at best
AYT: ?
BCN: No direct turnarounds due to operated by IB.
BER: ?
BGO: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
BLL: ?
BMA: Safe (Transfer door is before going to the terminal exit and boarding will not start before the incoming plane is empty.)
BRU: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
BUD: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
CDG: ?
CFU: ?
CHQ: Risky (To landside first and security needed. Long lines possibile.)
CPH: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
CTA: ?
DBV: ?
DUB: ?
DUS: ?
EDI: ? (Security check required for sure.)
FCO: Intermediate / Risky. Bus transportation can cause long walks.
FNC: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight. Mobile BP not available, obtain a BP from HEL.)
FRA: Safe (Even with the bus from stand you can make it.)
FUE: ?
GDN: Risky (Providing it is ATR by Norra, apron position, walking / bussing to the arrivals, queue security (can be very long), sprint upstairs to the gate.)
GOT: Safe / Intermediate(At least on tube arrival, after exit from the tube to the terminal area, turn around and you are at the departure gate. No info on possible bus gates though.)
GVA: ?
GZP: ?
HAJ: Safe (Arrival at departure gate)
HAM: ?
HER: ?
IBZ: ?
INN: Intermediate / Risky (To landside first and then security. No airside transit.)
IVL: Safe, arrivals pour into the gate area.
JOE: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
JSI: ?
JTR: ?
JYV: ?
KAJ: ?
KAO: ?
KEF: ?
KEM: ?
KGS: ?
KOK: ?
KRK: Intermediate (AY rarely has a jetty position so bus, arrivals then go upstairs to departures for security, there is a fast track for OW elites - not well signposted - separate B/Pass scanner to the left)
KTT: ?
KUO: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
LHR: Intermediate (Need to go via Flight Connections to reclear security, which may take time depending on the time of the day.)
LIS: ?
LIN: Safe, arrivals pour into departures.
LJU: ?
LPA: ?
LYS: ?
MAD: No direct turnarounds due to operated by IB.
MAH: ?
MAN: Intermediate/Risky, requires reclearing security.
MHQ: ?
MSQ: ?
MUC: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
MXP: Intermediate / Risky (Arrivals come into a different floor, transfer requires walking through a transfer point and distances are quite long.)
NAP: ?
NCE: ?
OSL: Safe / Intermediate (D gates pours directly to departures. E gates also pours to departure gate, follow transit arrow, automatic gate door will open during "normal" hours. IF door doesn't open go upstairs try the transfer security. Very rare reports of stand arrival with bus to exit, but should still be doable, security is usually fast and short distances.)
OUL: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
PFO: ?
PMI: ?
PRG: Safe (From arrivals walk up to departures to departure gate.)
PVK: ?
RHO: Risky (Arrivals pour to baggage claim, security check usually has long lines before you get to the departure hall.)
RIX: Risky. After deplaning, you walk to the terminal, but boarding is done with buses. My flight was delayed, and they started boarding before the plane was even there.
RMI: ?
RVN: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
SPU: ?
SZG: ?
TAY: ?
TFS: ?
TLL: Risky (May have a remote stand arrival, when departing flight has been boarded into a bus with boarding gate already closed.)
TLV: ?
TOS: ?
UME: ?
VAA: Intermediate (Exit via baggage claim and reclear security, but should be doable if you exit among the first from the inbound flight.)
VBY: ?
VCE: ?
VIE: Safe (Arrivals pour directly to departure gate.)
VNO: Risky. (Departing pax board bus when arriving pax still deplaning. Connection corridor available but not sure how straightforward it is).
VRN: ?
WAW: Safe (Arrivals pour to departure gate.)
ZRH: Safe (When exiting the bridge, you are under the gates and there are inclined speedwalks that bring back to the gates upstairs.)
Immediate turnaround information for selected longhaul AY destinations:
DEL: Intermediate (There's plenty of time for the obligatory visit to the transit desk and security. However, you'll need a self-printed visa confirmation to show the gate agent at HEL.)
DOH: ?
DXB: Intermediate (Follow "connections" to security downstairs and after that go to transfer desk if needed.)
JFK: Intermediate (Generous time with the new schedule, but you'll need to clear US immigration so ESTA or visa is needed.)
NRT: Intermediate (OLCI and mobile BP works, no need to go landside. There's transfer security, though.)
Ahoy, mileage runners! (Incl. immediate turnarounds)
Apr 28, 2018, 2:29 am
#1141
Ambassador: Finnair
Join Date: May 2003
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Lumo, BA Silver, HHonors Gold
Posts: 4,267
Good point, very little discussion about Silvers and Golds here, for some reason. Guess they did that because they axed the lounges from Silvers so that Gold would be easier to achieve for some old _heavy_ Silvers.
Apr 28, 2018, 2:53 am
#1142
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
I first want to echo NoWindowSeat - great and interesting posts.
I do hope that I am not coming across as jelous or unreasonable, but I do feel people are not seeing all angles.
I am not actually talking about value. I am talking about balance in a loyalty program. Clearly AY wants a higher number of people to qualify on segments as they keep lowering the bar and add perks that only can be used by the Y-traveller.
The flipside of that coin is that it signals they want fewer people qualifying in J. It is fine by me, there are other airlines that appreciate their business class flyers.
Those flying on company dime sometimes can influence decisions and so loyalty does play a part. But I agree. A majority of segment qualifiers are flying on company dime, and there is no loyalty involved in their flying decisions.
With the exception of the idiots and lumatics here, I'd say the tier member who paid for 76 segments out of pocket are extremely rare. Typically someone with a new SO in a different city might fly every weekend (I've done that for a year). But 99,9999% of segment qualifiers are flying on company dime, under company policy of Y only and here Finnair already is chosen as preferred partner. Lavishing perks on this group does nothing to increase loyalty, but that is exactly what Finnair is doing.
I spend €15 450 last year on airplane tickets (not only on myself though). The year before that €13 700. Personal money.
That is twice as much as the example of the 76 segments flyer taken to the extreme, buying only last minute tickets. Still I am stuck in a place where there is practically no "return on investment" for my loyalty and where people with less spend and less loyalty is ranked and rewarded above me.
However, I am opposed revenue based. This is based on my long experience with loyalty marketing. For a loyalty program to work , the fundamental law is that it has to be easy to understand what is rewarded and that has to be easily influenced by the purchaser.
The ticket types are exactly that. In the moment of purchase you are given a few clear options where you easily can remeber what they include and how they are rewarded.
Ticket price is not easy to understand and not easily influenced - did you ever hear someone saying "I will wait 2 weeks with my ticket purchase, because that will earn me more loyalty points"? I'd go as far as to say that ticket price does not work at all in loyalty regards. All it does is it filters out some members from some tiers, but not in a predictable and easily influenced way.
And this is why all the revenue based programs are a mess. Many of them now have 3 criteria that must be fulfilled and where revenue is only one part.
I do hope that I am not coming across as jelous or unreasonable, but I do feel people are not seeing all angles.
If you need to be in ARN on a suitable schedule 3-7 days before, you'll easily pay 200€ for a return ticket on average and at 38 returns, meaning ~7600€.
A leisure plat renewing status Northern Europe-Asia can requalify for 3.33 flights (45k/return), let's round it up to 4 for fun at e.g. 1400€/ticket, meaning ~5600€.
These are different extremes and use cases, but who's to really say who's more valuable than the other?
A leisure plat renewing status Northern Europe-Asia can requalify for 3.33 flights (45k/return), let's round it up to 4 for fun at e.g. 1400€/ticket, meaning ~5600€.
These are different extremes and use cases, but who's to really say who's more valuable than the other?
The flipside of that coin is that it signals they want fewer people qualifying in J. It is fine by me, there are other airlines that appreciate their business class flyers.
only thing I'm interested in is how much OWN money are people spending.With the exception of the idiots and lumatics here, I'd say the tier member who paid for 76 segments out of pocket are extremely rare. Typically someone with a new SO in a different city might fly every weekend (I've done that for a year). But 99,9999% of segment qualifiers are flying on company dime, under company policy of Y only and here Finnair already is chosen as preferred partner. Lavishing perks on this group does nothing to increase loyalty, but that is exactly what Finnair is doing.
I spend €15 450 last year on airplane tickets (not only on myself though). The year before that €13 700. Personal money.
That is twice as much as the example of the 76 segments flyer taken to the extreme, buying only last minute tickets. Still I am stuck in a place where there is practically no "return on investment" for my loyalty and where people with less spend and less loyalty is ranked and rewarded above me.
However, I am opposed revenue based. This is based on my long experience with loyalty marketing. For a loyalty program to work , the fundamental law is that it has to be easy to understand what is rewarded and that has to be easily influenced by the purchaser.
The ticket types are exactly that. In the moment of purchase you are given a few clear options where you easily can remeber what they include and how they are rewarded.
Ticket price is not easy to understand and not easily influenced - did you ever hear someone saying "I will wait 2 weeks with my ticket purchase, because that will earn me more loyalty points"? I'd go as far as to say that ticket price does not work at all in loyalty regards. All it does is it filters out some members from some tiers, but not in a predictable and easily influenced way.
And this is why all the revenue based programs are a mess. Many of them now have 3 criteria that must be fulfilled and where revenue is only one part.
Last edited by intuition; Apr 28, 2018 at 2:58 am
Apr 28, 2018, 3:28 am
#1143
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
Intuition, I definitely agree with you on the revenue part.
I'd also have a question for you. On several occasions, you have brought up the fact that for someone who mostly/only flies paid J, AY+ doesn't really offer much value: you get your priority queues, lounges and bag allowances based on class of travel. An F lounge here or there, maybe, if you happen to fly to one of the few airports where they exist. So here comes the question: What would you want AY+ to do for someone with your flying patterns? Because surely someone who flies several longhaul paid J flights a year must be one of the most sought out customers for AY, and someone whose loyalty would be worth a lot. (Of course, you get a bunch of upgrade vouchers and points, so the greatest value probably lies in the ability to buy a few return Y tickets and upgrade them to J, saving cash. But for someone travelling on company dime, even that isn't valuable to the pax himself.)
I'd also have a question for you. On several occasions, you have brought up the fact that for someone who mostly/only flies paid J, AY+ doesn't really offer much value: you get your priority queues, lounges and bag allowances based on class of travel. An F lounge here or there, maybe, if you happen to fly to one of the few airports where they exist. So here comes the question: What would you want AY+ to do for someone with your flying patterns? Because surely someone who flies several longhaul paid J flights a year must be one of the most sought out customers for AY, and someone whose loyalty would be worth a lot. (Of course, you get a bunch of upgrade vouchers and points, so the greatest value probably lies in the ability to buy a few return Y tickets and upgrade them to J, saving cash. But for someone travelling on company dime, even that isn't valuable to the pax himself.)
Apr 28, 2018, 4:08 am
#1144
Join Date: May 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+Plat, ALL Plat, Scandic L2
Posts: 3,620
On the other hand, a weekly OUL-HEL-ARN Y flier could switch to D8 (or SK/KF way back when), so I'd say it makes to give him/her an incentive to stick to AY.
In particular, I have known travelers with "cheapest available business class" long-haul corporate policies. Loyalty programs are as useless to capture those fliers, as "cheapest available cabin" or "cheapest available economy class" policy fliers.
Apr 28, 2018, 4:19 am
#1145
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
While I sympathize with the sentiment, if this was true then every single airline loyalty program has failed and should be terminated immediately!
Of course the loyalty program cannot and should not compensate for flaws in the product. Those flaws should be adressed at the source of failure.
But if the airline delivers a subpar J product there will be a dent in loyalty of J customers. It affects the program, as loyalty is not only built by AY+ points. If this happens at the same time as the loyalty program fixates on Y travellers, there is a double dent in the loyalty of the J customer.
So, of course the product and the loyalty program are connected. If the program was better for J flyers, then we probably have more patience with the product. But the current state of affairs is that longhaul J is not a very good product and the Ay+ program is not a very good program for longhaul J flyers.
...
What should the (paid) longhaul J platinum/emerald member then get, that would make business sense? Another lounge? Hardly wise from a cost-efficiency point of view. How many such passengers would Finnair have daily flying from or via HEL? 50, departing at different points in time? Driver service from home to the airport? Again, costs a lot of money. Here Finnair should probably offer this for points, where there would be a discount. Category zero prio boarding, i.e. before anyone else? Fine by me, I would imagine most experienced longhaul J fliers want to board as late as possible. More points? Why? Introduction of F class? Again, probably not a good business case.
I think the problem is pretty much the same for all airlines. What to offer the really top fliers, that makes sense also from a cost perspective? Lumo is a good step, and I would expect it to develop over the years. Again, the number of fliers who reach that voluntarily, with cheap Oulu or Stockholm tickets, or with cheap business fares must be limited. Finnair is a small airline, with a very sensitive business. They simply can’t offer Concorde lounges or First Class Terminals. Not enough passengers, not enough space at airport, not wise from a cost point of view. Please suggest improvements to Finnair that make sense for a broad enough group of passengers and that also makes sense from a cost perspective, and I am sure Finnair will listen and consider it! They are professionals, not a bunch of kids who decided to run an airline.
What should the (paid) longhaul J platinum/emerald member then get, that would make business sense? Another lounge? Hardly wise from a cost-efficiency point of view. How many such passengers would Finnair have daily flying from or via HEL? 50, departing at different points in time? Driver service from home to the airport? Again, costs a lot of money. Here Finnair should probably offer this for points, where there would be a discount. Category zero prio boarding, i.e. before anyone else? Fine by me, I would imagine most experienced longhaul J fliers want to board as late as possible. More points? Why? Introduction of F class? Again, probably not a good business case.
I think the problem is pretty much the same for all airlines. What to offer the really top fliers, that makes sense also from a cost perspective? Lumo is a good step, and I would expect it to develop over the years. Again, the number of fliers who reach that voluntarily, with cheap Oulu or Stockholm tickets, or with cheap business fares must be limited. Finnair is a small airline, with a very sensitive business. They simply can’t offer Concorde lounges or First Class Terminals. Not enough passengers, not enough space at airport, not wise from a cost point of view. Please suggest improvements to Finnair that make sense for a broad enough group of passengers and that also makes sense from a cost perspective, and I am sure Finnair will listen and consider it! They are professionals, not a bunch of kids who decided to run an airline.
Yes, platinums should get another lounge. This is how other airlines do it.
And why is the "cost-efficiency point of view" only applicable for J-class longhaul platinums?
I simply don't understand how you can claim that longhaul J travellers are not a large enough group to be considered and that there is no money in this business segment?!
People make a lot of calculations on how much different types of travellers spend and if this is reasonable for earning a tier. But I think it is only people on FT who thinks like this. We like to optimise, and we are meassuring our personal spend in order to not only get the actual product (the flight) but also the side product (tier benefits)
But spend alone is pretty useless metric to the company. What's interesting for the business is the margin on each purchase and only then the number of purchases.
If I spend 1 million with Finnair and they spend 1,1 million on delivering the product then that is utterly useless business, even if it puts me on top of the high-spenders' list.
If I spend 10€ but their cost to deliver is 0,1€ then that is a marvelous business - all they need to to is to increase the number of times I spend that tenner.
This is what I think people are failing to see. Delivering the platinum perks to a Y flyer has a considerable cost on every single flight.This has to be taken out of the margin, not the spend. 76x the tier costs needs to be compared to the total margin, not the total spend.
Delivering the platinum perks to a J flyer is basically costless. Nothing has to come out of the margin to pay for it. So when I fly, 5x 0€ is coming out of the margin. It doesn't matter if I fly 3, 5 or 7 longhauls - there is zero € taken out of the margin to pay for my platinum card. If I fly (god forbid) 76 shorthaul J flights, there is still 0 € coming out of the margin to pay for my plat card.
So when you say it is not cost efficient to give platinums in J any perks, I find it pretty offensive. Are you saying that J is sold with a negative margin and so it would be bad business to spend anything on J flyers to increase their loyalty?
And are you so sure margin on shorthaul Y is so immensly high that even after paying for lounge, drinks, papers and so on, you still generate a higher profit than other platinums do?
Well, then maybe Finnair should drop the longhaul business entirely and convert the fleet to one-class!
Apr 28, 2018, 4:22 am
#1146
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Seat 1L these days :)
Programs: AF Platinum/AY LUMO/SK EBG/baEC S/HYATT Globalist/MR LTP/A3 *G/HH Dia/IHG plat
Posts: 7,957
Personally I dont see what difference it makes to ANYONE how someone else qualifies for their status 
It seems silly enough, all this discussion has been seen many many times. There is allways someone who spends more, flies more, etc etc etc.
Of course as a soft landed ay silver my stake is not here 😁
It seems silly enough, all this discussion has been seen many many times. There is allways someone who spends more, flies more, etc etc etc.
Of course as a soft landed ay silver my stake is not here 😁
Apr 28, 2018, 4:54 am
#1147
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Helsinki
Programs: AY Platinum, IHG Gold, Diners
Posts: 1,276
@intuition, no need to be offended.
One question: What would you as a platinum J flier want to have? Would you be happy if Premium lounge in HEL would be Platinum/Emerald only? Or should it be Platinum in paid J only?
I don’t disagree that there is little less offered for the J flier compared to Platinum. But I trust Finnair has made the calculations, and decided on this model. If one doesn’t like that, then one should fly with the other airlines that offer better perks.
As for the company fliers not having loyalty, I disagree. Out of my 93 segments last 12 months, 8 have been on other than Finnair. 4 segments due to Finnair not flying to the destination at the time (HEL-MUC-CTA r/t), 4 segments (HEL-ARN-BRU r/t) as the price difference was 200% and I simply couldn’t justify it. Every other trip I have had the choice of selecting SK, DY or KL instead. I did not, as I am loyal to Finnair. I used to be loyal to SK, but I don’t like their lounge in Helsinki and I got struck by a lot of cancellations. Back when Silver on AY gave lounge access, and I experienced the Schengen AY lounge, I decided that I will give Finnair a chance. They have not disappointed me, and I happily spend a reasonable extra amount of both own and company money to fly Finnair. Plus my whole family is happy that we can access lounges when going on holiday.
But I agree, we all defend our own views. I can only trust that Finnair knows their numbers. If the rules change, I am ok with that. I can find another program, airline or alliance.
One question: What would you as a platinum J flier want to have? Would you be happy if Premium lounge in HEL would be Platinum/Emerald only? Or should it be Platinum in paid J only?
I don’t disagree that there is little less offered for the J flier compared to Platinum. But I trust Finnair has made the calculations, and decided on this model. If one doesn’t like that, then one should fly with the other airlines that offer better perks.
As for the company fliers not having loyalty, I disagree. Out of my 93 segments last 12 months, 8 have been on other than Finnair. 4 segments due to Finnair not flying to the destination at the time (HEL-MUC-CTA r/t), 4 segments (HEL-ARN-BRU r/t) as the price difference was 200% and I simply couldn’t justify it. Every other trip I have had the choice of selecting SK, DY or KL instead. I did not, as I am loyal to Finnair. I used to be loyal to SK, but I don’t like their lounge in Helsinki and I got struck by a lot of cancellations. Back when Silver on AY gave lounge access, and I experienced the Schengen AY lounge, I decided that I will give Finnair a chance. They have not disappointed me, and I happily spend a reasonable extra amount of both own and company money to fly Finnair. Plus my whole family is happy that we can access lounges when going on holiday.
But I agree, we all defend our own views. I can only trust that Finnair knows their numbers. If the rules change, I am ok with that. I can find another program, airline or alliance.
Apr 28, 2018, 6:39 am
#1148
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Plat Lumo, SK Gold
Posts: 954
People make a lot of calculations on how much different types of travellers spend and if this is reasonable for earning a tier. But I think it is only people on FT who thinks like this. We like to optimise, and we are meassuring our personal spend in order to not only get the actual product (the flight) but also the side product (tier benefits)
Apr 28, 2018, 6:41 am
#1149
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
@niksal, no worries. Not personally offended, but maybe a sorer spot than I thought
Good question, and I agree it is not easily answered.
If there was F and true F lounges, it would be "easy" as there would be a better and designated lounge and upgrades to give to platinums in J.
Then again, if there was F on Finnair, I might be flying F and then I'd have the same complaints that there is nothing extra for the F-flyer!
Because the current tier program basically just offers the perks from the level above you, there will always nothing left to offer those of highest tier flying in J.
While this has been irking me for awhile, I guess the entry of Lumo has pushed me over the line.
The new tier is supposed to offer those extra perks I am missing, like ultimate flexibility in CS, upgrades clearing, award space materializing, perhaps some free rebooking even on inflexible tickets and so on. Perks that does not come from "the level above" and that actually adds value for someone already flying exclusively in J.
But then we have the points threshold.
I'm doing 3-4 J longhauls a year, which puts me in the 150-175k/year interval.
In order to get any perks at all, I either have to 3-fold my J flying (increase to once a month) or I have to stop flying J altogether and implement a personal Y-only policy.
Neither of these two are happening.
If Lumo stays a very exclusive club, with less than 100 members, then nothing really has changed. Nothing has improved for me, but platinums in J are at least not worse off than before, because it is very unlikely that I get disadvantaged by a lumo on any of my flights.
But the feeling is that platinums in J is getting the short stick in this game. And you are right, one should always research and weigh the options. (I am doing that, I just don't want to be that guy who over and over posts "make things better for me, otherwise I'll go elsewhere")
Good question, and I agree it is not easily answered.
If there was F and true F lounges, it would be "easy" as there would be a better and designated lounge and upgrades to give to platinums in J.
Then again, if there was F on Finnair, I might be flying F and then I'd have the same complaints that there is nothing extra for the F-flyer!
Because the current tier program basically just offers the perks from the level above you, there will always nothing left to offer those of highest tier flying in J.
While this has been irking me for awhile, I guess the entry of Lumo has pushed me over the line.
The new tier is supposed to offer those extra perks I am missing, like ultimate flexibility in CS, upgrades clearing, award space materializing, perhaps some free rebooking even on inflexible tickets and so on. Perks that does not come from "the level above" and that actually adds value for someone already flying exclusively in J.
But then we have the points threshold.
I'm doing 3-4 J longhauls a year, which puts me in the 150-175k/year interval.
In order to get any perks at all, I either have to 3-fold my J flying (increase to once a month) or I have to stop flying J altogether and implement a personal Y-only policy.
Neither of these two are happening.
If Lumo stays a very exclusive club, with less than 100 members, then nothing really has changed. Nothing has improved for me, but platinums in J are at least not worse off than before, because it is very unlikely that I get disadvantaged by a lumo on any of my flights.
But the feeling is that platinums in J is getting the short stick in this game. And you are right, one should always research and weigh the options. (I am doing that, I just don't want to be that guy who over and over posts "make things better for me, otherwise I'll go elsewhere")
Apr 28, 2018, 7:23 am
#1150
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 90
Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it is a mileage run question! Anyone have experience arriving and departing on the same aircraft at Berlin’s Tegel (TXL)? It’s FInnair Schengen to Schengen with technically an hour and 5 min as connection time. Do I need to go back through security again? Usually a bus gate? Thanks!
Apr 28, 2018, 11:15 am
#1151
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
Not exactly the same but I've had a 35 minute terminal C to terminal A connection where arriving at C was a bus gate. No sweat!
Tegel has no centralized security and thus no clean airside transit. In terminal A you do security at each gate.
From terminal A my guess is that it very rarely is busgate. From other terminals is is very common.
Tegel has no centralized security and thus no clean airside transit. In terminal A you do security at each gate.
From terminal A my guess is that it very rarely is busgate. From other terminals is is very common.
Apr 28, 2018, 11:21 am
#1152
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Programs: AY Lumo, FB Gold
Posts: 1,667
Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it is a mileage run question! Anyone have experience arriving and departing on the same aircraft at Berlin’s Tegel (TXL)? It’s FInnair Schengen to Schengen with technically an hour and 5 min as connection time. Do I need to go back through security again? Usually a bus gate? Thanks!
But fear not, due to the way Tegel is set up you exit the gate area around 20 meters from the security checkpoint to get back there (the check in desks are in-between) so it's no biggie. With an hour to spare you have enough time to trek it to the BA lounge for a quick drink or a sandwich (just remember to use the toilets on the way as the lounge is toilet-less!).
Apr 28, 2018, 1:36 pm
#1153
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it is a mileage run question! Anyone have experience arriving and departing on the same aircraft at Berlin’s Tegel (TXL)? It’s FInnair Schengen to Schengen with technically an hour and 5 min as connection time. Do I need to go back through security again? Usually a bus gate? Thanks!
Apr 28, 2018, 1:53 pm
#1154
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
Good question, and I agree it is not easily answered.
If there was F and true F lounges, it would be "easy" as there would be a better and designated lounge and upgrades to give to platinums in J.
Then again, if there was F on Finnair, I might be flying F and then I'd have the same complaints that there is nothing extra for the F-flyer!
If there was F and true F lounges, it would be "easy" as there would be a better and designated lounge and upgrades to give to platinums in J.
Then again, if there was F on Finnair, I might be flying F and then I'd have the same complaints that there is nothing extra for the F-flyer!
AY, on the other hand, has two (non-Schengen) lounges: the better one is for status pax and the other one for paid J (and OWS).
If there comes a time where AY is willing to acquire (and pay rent for) enough space for lounge operations, then IMHO what they should do is to have a Platinum-only non-Schengen and Schengen lounge a tad above the current levels of the premium lounge, and then another one for all others.
I suppose the greatest value in AY+ for you is the fact that you can buy Y tickets for at least two of your yearly longhauls, using vouchers and points to upgrade. It, however, requires that there's upgrade availability on the days you need to fly. And it's also somewhat a vicious circle because if you reach the threshold just barely, then buying Y instead of J might actually leave you below the threshold (but you could of course transfer award points to tier points and make it that way).
Example:
Four returns CPH-Asia, 2 in Y/Value, 2 in J. 135 points. Three voucher upgrades and one points upgrade mean that you sit in J on all longhauls (but in Y on 3 shorthauls). To requalify for Plat, 45k award points transferred into tier points. Grand total: 4 returns in J CPH-Asia and 40k points left to be used next year or whenever (theoretically, you could use part of those to upgrade the shorthauls, if you wished). In my books, you save about €1600 a year because AY has a loyalty programme and you have reached the (second) highest level. Of course, if you need to fly on certain dates and are forced to book late, then the upgrades might not clear which would force you to buy J, thus crushing my calculations...
Apr 28, 2018, 3:54 pm
#1155
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
About the lounges there is the general complexity of OW rules, which some airlines ask for exceptions from (QR) and some airlines completely disregards (BA). OW should enforce and modernize the commons rules but it ain't going to happen.
On top of that Finnar HEL lounges has capacity problems and the "premium" lounge, that probably was intended for top tier had to become an overflow solution for the J lounge. We will see what the future holds, but didn't somone post about that? It will be just an extension of current lounge, ie not a new true premium lounge, IIRC.
As for the calculations you are pretty spot on. However, there are two flaws in the upgrade system that severly affects me.
First, upgrades cannot be processed until there is a finalized Y ticket. I'd rather stay home than fly in Y, so this is technically a catch-22 for me. I'd rather not buy the ticket unless I am certain it can be upgraded. In practive, upgrades usually clears, but to me the uncertainty and the possible need for cancelling the Finnair ticket and find alternatives is stressful.
Second, the dwindling availability in the search tool makes it difficult to plan and use the upgrade vouchers. I mostly book well in advance and can be somewhat flexible with dates, so if there was any availability in the tool I would likely be able to adapt to it. But there isn't.
So while the upgrades hold a solid value on paper, these two issues makes them less valueable to me in real life terms. I find myself increasingly often annoyed by this bother and just book J in the first place. For instance, it looks like I will not use one of my LH upgrade vouchers this year.
On top of that Finnar HEL lounges has capacity problems and the "premium" lounge, that probably was intended for top tier had to become an overflow solution for the J lounge. We will see what the future holds, but didn't somone post about that? It will be just an extension of current lounge, ie not a new true premium lounge, IIRC.
As for the calculations you are pretty spot on. However, there are two flaws in the upgrade system that severly affects me.
First, upgrades cannot be processed until there is a finalized Y ticket. I'd rather stay home than fly in Y, so this is technically a catch-22 for me. I'd rather not buy the ticket unless I am certain it can be upgraded. In practive, upgrades usually clears, but to me the uncertainty and the possible need for cancelling the Finnair ticket and find alternatives is stressful.
Second, the dwindling availability in the search tool makes it difficult to plan and use the upgrade vouchers. I mostly book well in advance and can be somewhat flexible with dates, so if there was any availability in the tool I would likely be able to adapt to it. But there isn't.
So while the upgrades hold a solid value on paper, these two issues makes them less valueable to me in real life terms. I find myself increasingly often annoyed by this bother and just book J in the first place. For instance, it looks like I will not use one of my LH upgrade vouchers this year.