Hypothetical:what approach to take if one is downgraded/upgrade cancelled at airport?
 

Just a hypothetical question in a worst case scenario where business class is oversold.

I'm a bit worried because I have had an upgrade cleared via the waiting list 2 days before take-off, but now when I tried OLCI it will only generate a BP for the second leg which was also upgraded (HEL-WAW) but not the main one (SIN-HEL). It states to pick up this BP at check-in.

The last time something similar happened (unable to get a BP online) I was bumped up on a BA flight from SYD to SIN. But here the only bumping that can be done is in the downwards direction...

Should I be worried? It's tomorrow's (19 Feb) flight from SIN to HEL (AY82) that's in question. Does it look packed/oversold? A few days ago there were lots of seats showing up as free on ExpertFlyer, whereas now they are all either taken or blocked.

What happens in case of getting bumped in the other direction? Is it simply a case of having an upgrade cancelled, or would it now be treated as a regular involuntary downgrade?

EU261 would apply - 75% of the ticket price back. Of course AY will deny this and try to get away with refunding the points only. Worth pursuing it in a small claims court

You should have the option of being re-routed (ex-SIN lots of options) - AY of course will NOT offer it, ask for it.

Failure to complete OLCI is IMHO a indicator of a irregularity like bumping. But in your case, if the upgrade just cleared maybe it just due to that.


AYs policy is that bumping a upgrader is not a involuntary downgrade and will only offer points back. They don't even see it as a change that needs to be communicated to the customer in advance, but thinks it is good enough to produce a BP in economy when you arrive at airport.

IME it is essential to be proactive, even if that only means you'll get the sad information today.

AY will deny any such claim in all situations.

AY does not normally oversell business, IMHO these bumpings only occurs when OH-LQG or LQF goes tech and SIN or HKG route gets the short end of the stick. Even if AY would recognize upgraders as involuntary downgrade, they will claim extraordinary situation voids EU/261.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the extraordinary circumstances clause in EC261/2004 covers downgrade compensation.

Technically check-in was completed, but for some reason I could only print the second BP whereas the first one needs to be collected at the airport. Strange...

What worries me is not just the check-in but what could happen later at the gate. I guess there's a chance of a "change of plans" there as well, right? :)

If it's an econ ticket upgraded to biz then how would that apply? 75% off (the entire econ ticket, or 1/2 of the ticket since it's the return journey?) + full points back? Which court would apply, the one here in Singapore, or can this only be done where the ticket was purchased?

IANAL - but can be be SIN, FIN or country of purchase. If it's an EU country, you could make use of the EU small claims procedure (sorry, google it)

According to EU261 75% of full trip. My take is that 100% points and 75% cash.

Thanks. So what's the procedure at the airport for this? Accept the downgrade and then file for the 75% and points refund? Or does acceptance of the new BP mean you agree to the change in travel class?

I take it the other way is to deny the downgrade and then they have to put you in business on the following flight even if they have to oversell the cabin (+hotel/food vouchers/costs)?

Or re-route you (in C) to your final destination

In order to claim this must I refuse to get onboard and basically stay and make my way back on my own? Or does this also apply if they downgrade me at check-in or at the gate and fly me back in econ?

We are still talking about a F (upgraded) ticket, right? In my experience, there is not much of choice/procedure. If a downgrade occurs, AY is of the view that they are giving you exactly what you paid for. They don't see it as a downgrade, they merely see it as not being able to give you the upgrade. This is regardless of the upgrade being confirmed and ticketed.

This has happened to me once, and AY CI-staff was 100% caught by surprise when I refused to accept the Y boarding pass. CI staff were not authorized to do anything but hand over the BP. As I refused to accept it, there was a stand off and CI staff opted to call Finland. AY home staff refused to reroute, and refused to offer seat on existing AY codeshare on the exact same route and day as my ticket. After pushing them, they finally offered to rebook on next AY flight, which was one day later. I think that since I offered to travel another day, ie voluntary, they were able to rebook tickets knowing they had no other obligations (hotels, food, loss of income).




EC/261 says that if the travel occurs in a lower class than paid for, airline must pay penalty.
If you altogether deny to travel on the ticket you bought, it is you who have done a no-show.

Many thanks. Like most airlines they will be of the view that they have done nothing wrong, so in a way I am expecting to go straight to the courts if need be. But I believe EC/261 still applies regardless of whether the upgrade was paid for by miles or cash (airlines will of course have their own philosophy). Plus the ticket has now been reissued as a business class ticket (of course compensation would apply to the price paid, which is for an econ ticket).

I was just worried that accepting the new BP would somehow make this voluntary. Many thanks for clearing this up, namely that I must take the BP or else it will be a 'no show'. So basically accepting the BP and taking the airline straight to courts seems like the only solution unless one wants to try A) rerouting -or- B) change of departure date to the following day. From what I understand they are legally required to then move you to the following day's flight even if it means overselling the cabin.

What happens if they don't want to switch you over to tomorrow's flight? Not accepting the BP would be a no-show, so in a way there is no way to force this approach from them, right?

Article 10, section 2 says *)
and then follows the rules for 30,50 and 75% reimbursement. And nothing else.

So, there is nothing in there about voluntary downgrade and you should be fine accepting to travel.

In my case, I did refuse to travel and manage to wiggle my way to a next day re-booking. But there is no legal way to force them IMHO. My approach (not my finest hour, though) was to claim denied boarding. I held a confirmed J ticket, and they were not allowing me to board in J and not asking for volunteers to stand down.

If you can win the CI staff over to your side, they can be your best leverage against AY operations. They can take the fight with AY on your behalf, if re-routing is your preferred option. If not, I'd say your suggestion is best - accept Y and go to court. (Keep me posted how it goes, I am about to take a 261 issue to court myself)



*) I also believe the regulation should apply equally to tickets, regardless of paid by points or money. I am not sure if "upgraded with points = purchased" has been tested by any court yet.


Article 10, which is the only one that talks about downgrading, does not state any other rights, like re-routing, support et.c. ie if they offer to transport you at the date&time set on your ticket, they have fullfilled their obligations. Anything above and beyond the Y BP is at their good will...

LQB should be operating AY 82 tonite.... curious to hear what happened to the OP?!?

Yes, hopefully Aster will report back tomorrow when he is back on the ground.

LQB has the same number of seats as other A340's, so this shouldn't be a case of equipment change leading to fewer seats of J. Hopefully it was just some hickup making his BP stuck somewhere.