View from the Wing [VFTW] discussions
Oct 11, 2018, 5:39 am
#946
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Programs: Airline Free Agent, Fairmont Lifetime Platinum, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Honors Diamond
Posts: 3,041
I am keeping a list of blog posts all these successful bloggers are doing to screw their readers. I am sure JonNYC approves, sad!
Oct 11, 2018, 5:56 am
#947
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
So FTC enforced the guidelines against VFTW, and VFTW didn’t bother to follow the enforcement? Doesn’t sound like enforcement.
Oct 11, 2018, 6:44 am
#948
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,158
I didnt say that the FTC and VFTW had any interactions.... ?
The FTC says the following:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ple-are-asking
So if you write about an fantastic offer of hotel points on sale against cash and fail to clearly disclose that buying points for cash after clicking the link in that article you will run afoul of FTC rules. Putting a big block of catch all legalese on the blog post or in the about us section doesn't relieve that requirement. Sadly the latter is done by all bloggers.
The FTC says the following:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ple-are-asking
Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. She tells you it performs wonderfully and offers fantastic new features that nobody else has. Would that recommendation factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.Now suppose the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) Endorsement Guides.The Guides, at their core, reflect the basic truth-in-advertising principle that endorsements must be honest and not misleading. An endorsement must reflect the honest opinion of the endorser and can’t be used to make a claim that the product’s marketer couldn’t legally make.
Isn’t it common knowledge that bloggers are paid to tout products or that if you click a link on a blogger’s site to buy a product, the blogger will get a commission?No. Some bloggers who mention products in their posts have no connection to the marketers of those products – they don’t receive anything for their reviews or get a commission. They simply recommend those products to their readers because they believe in them. Moreover, the financial arrangements between some bloggers and advertisers may be apparent to industry insiders, but not to everyone else who reads a particular blog. Under the law, an act or practice is deceptive if it misleads “a significant minority” of consumers. Even if some readers are aware of these deals, many readers aren’t. That’s why disclosure is important
Oct 11, 2018, 7:15 am
#949
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I didnt say that the FTC and VFTW had any interactions.... ?
The FTC says the following:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ple-are-asking
So if you write about an fantastic offer of hotel points on sale against cash and fail to clearly disclose that buying points for cash after clicking the link in that article you will run afoul of FTC rules. Putting a big block of catch all legalese on the blog post or in the about us section doesn't relieve that requirement. Sadly the latter is done by all bloggers.
The FTC says the following:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ple-are-asking
So if you write about an fantastic offer of hotel points on sale against cash and fail to clearly disclose that buying points for cash after clicking the link in that article you will run afoul of FTC rules. Putting a big block of catch all legalese on the blog post or in the about us section doesn't relieve that requirement. Sadly the latter is done by all bloggers.
Oct 11, 2018, 10:30 am
#950
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson; Avis PC
Posts: 35,255
In any case, I find the "banter" here interesting. I never read the blogs anywhere near what can be described as "regularly", but do enjoy reading entries that are mentioned on FT (in other forums that I frequent often) from time to time.
Oct 11, 2018, 1:32 pm
#951
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,600
A reader points me back to this thread, highlighting this spurious charge against me. Sadly I suspect better judgment would be not to engage here. However the allegation that I took someone else's work and claimed it was my own was absolutely 100% false. It gets repeated either by people that haven't bothered to fact check, or who want it to be true badly enough that they choose not do so.
Loyalty Lobby claimed I copied and pasted a hotel list they created and claimed it was my own. That is false. In my post I quoted the blog where I found the list -- (the content in question, from 2014, was in the form of a direct quote). However where I made a mistake is that I attributed it to <I>Head for Points</i>, failing to realize that he himself had quoted the list from Loyalty Lobby. So I cited HFP, not LL. I absolutely blew it. But the mistake was misattribution and was never "not crediting other bloggers."
There probably isn't another blog in the miles and points space that goes out of their way to credit sources more than I do. Sadly the person who originated this misleading allegation takes the opposite approach.. I'll now allow better judgment to return, leaving this forum as a space space for criticisms. I wanted to correct this one false claim, and will not delve further into speculation, accusations, or vitriol.
Best,
Gary
Loyalty Lobby claimed I copied and pasted a hotel list they created and claimed it was my own. That is false. In my post I quoted the blog where I found the list -- (the content in question, from 2014, was in the form of a direct quote). However where I made a mistake is that I attributed it to <I>Head for Points</i>, failing to realize that he himself had quoted the list from Loyalty Lobby. So I cited HFP, not LL. I absolutely blew it. But the mistake was misattribution and was never "not crediting other bloggers."
There probably isn't another blog in the miles and points space that goes out of their way to credit sources more than I do. Sadly the person who originated this misleading allegation takes the opposite approach.. I'll now allow better judgment to return, leaving this forum as a space space for criticisms. I wanted to correct this one false claim, and will not delve further into speculation, accusations, or vitriol.
Best,
Gary
Thanks for the clarification and for taking your (correct rather than incorrect) lumps here.
FWIW, though, just like in all the service provider forums, this is a space for all discussion, not just criticism. Although just like in the airline and hotel forums, sometimes it may not seem that way.
@:-)
Oct 11, 2018, 4:05 pm
#952
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: DL PM; IHG PlatAmb; Hilton Dia; Marriott Plat; Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 7,318
Wouldn't any level of enforcement first require a complaint being lodged? People probably can't be bothered to complain unless they feel cheated in some way.
In any case, I find the "banter" here interesting. I never read the blogs anywhere near what can be described as "regularly", but do enjoy reading entries that are mentioned on FT (in other forums that I frequent often) from time to time.
In any case, I find the "banter" here interesting. I never read the blogs anywhere near what can be described as "regularly", but do enjoy reading entries that are mentioned on FT (in other forums that I frequent often) from time to time.
Just because no one has enforced consumer protection laws against Gary or other bloggers doesn't mean they aren't violating them; just because enforcement action isn't taken doesn't mean its right; "legalese" like that on these blogs probably isn't of much "legal" value. Compliance departments at financial service providers focus on risk of enforcement action, not best practices for complying with the law.
There are also a number of factors (i.e., political), that cause low levels of enforcement. This particular blogger indeed plays an active role in fighting against active government regulation and enforcement of consumer and other laws.
Oct 11, 2018, 6:55 pm
#953
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: check swarm
Programs: DL DM & 2MM, SPG/Bonvoid LT Titanium, Hyatt Globalist, $tarbucks Titanium
Posts: 14,404
A reader points me back to this thread, highlighting this spurious charge against me. Sadly I suspect better judgment would be not to engage here. However the allegation that I took someone else's work and claimed it was my own was absolutely 100% false. It gets repeated either by people that haven't bothered to fact check, or who want it to be true badly enough that they choose not do so.
Loyalty Lobby claimed I copied and pasted a hotel list they created and claimed it was my own. That is false. In my post I quoted the blog where I found the list -- (the content in question, from 2014, was in the form of a direct quote). However where I made a mistake is that I attributed it to <I>Head for Points</i>, failing to realize that he himself had quoted the list from Loyalty Lobby. So I cited HFP, not LL. I absolutely blew it. But the mistake was misattribution and was never "not crediting other bloggers."
Best,
Gary
Loyalty Lobby claimed I copied and pasted a hotel list they created and claimed it was my own. That is false. In my post I quoted the blog where I found the list -- (the content in question, from 2014, was in the form of a direct quote). However where I made a mistake is that I attributed it to <I>Head for Points</i>, failing to realize that he himself had quoted the list from Loyalty Lobby. So I cited HFP, not LL. I absolutely blew it. But the mistake was misattribution and was never "not crediting other bloggers."
Best,
Gary
Oct 12, 2018, 1:52 am
#954
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, VS, HH, IHG, MB, MR
Posts: 26,871
Luckily for all of us, IHG now makes the PB list accessible in a way which allows a cut and paste, with a bit of tidying up on top, rather than a mass rewrite of 150 hotel names!
This was always one of the more intriguing dilemmas I ever came across though. Imagine you have a PDF list of 150 hotel names. Someone has retyped it already into normal text for online use. You COULD spend an hour retyping it yourself but the end result would be IDENTICAL to the list the someone else has already retyped and put online. No-one would be able to tell whether you had retyped it or cut and pasted. So what, realistically, do you do?
This was always one of the more intriguing dilemmas I ever came across though. Imagine you have a PDF list of 150 hotel names. Someone has retyped it already into normal text for online use. You COULD spend an hour retyping it yourself but the end result would be IDENTICAL to the list the someone else has already retyped and put online. No-one would be able to tell whether you had retyped it or cut and pasted. So what, realistically, do you do?
Oct 12, 2018, 11:40 am
#955
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,600
Luckily for all of us, IHG now makes the PB list accessible in a way which allows a cut and paste, with a bit of tidying up on top, rather than a mass rewrite of 150 hotel names!
This was always one of the more intriguing dilemmas I ever came across though. Imagine you have a PDF list of 150 hotel names. Someone has retyped it already into normal text for online use. You COULD spend an hour retyping it yourself but the end result would be IDENTICAL to the list the someone else has already retyped and put online. No-one would be able to tell whether you had retyped it or cut and pasted. So what, realistically, do you do?
This was always one of the more intriguing dilemmas I ever came across though. Imagine you have a PDF list of 150 hotel names. Someone has retyped it already into normal text for online use. You COULD spend an hour retyping it yourself but the end result would be IDENTICAL to the list the someone else has already retyped and put online. No-one would be able to tell whether you had retyped it or cut and pasted. So what, realistically, do you do?
Oct 12, 2018, 3:52 pm
#956
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson; Avis PC
Posts: 35,255
People who are misled by bloggers tend to come to Flyertalk when they realize their dream of using 240000 flibbits to travel the world for free in business class on December 24 isn't so easy in reality, and this community then deals with trying to clean it up.
Just because no one has enforced consumer protection laws against Gary or other bloggers doesn't mean they aren't violating them; just because enforcement action isn't taken doesn't mean its right; "legalese" like that on these blogs probably isn't of much "legal" value. Compliance departments at financial service providers focus on risk of enforcement action, not best practices for complying with the law.
There are also a number of factors (i.e., political), that cause low levels of enforcement. This particular blogger indeed plays an active role in fighting against active government regulation and enforcement of consumer and other laws.
Just because no one has enforced consumer protection laws against Gary or other bloggers doesn't mean they aren't violating them; just because enforcement action isn't taken doesn't mean its right; "legalese" like that on these blogs probably isn't of much "legal" value. Compliance departments at financial service providers focus on risk of enforcement action, not best practices for complying with the law.
There are also a number of factors (i.e., political), that cause low levels of enforcement. This particular blogger indeed plays an active role in fighting against active government regulation and enforcement of consumer and other laws.
Anyway, some of the entries/content/posts people refer to here in the blogs are over my head ATM... but something tells me I shouldn't bother reading them anytime soon in order to "get up to snuff".
Oct 12, 2018, 6:12 pm
#957
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: DL PM; IHG PlatAmb; Hilton Dia; Marriott Plat; Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 7,318
I don't disagree with what you're saying. I'm just saying that maybe there hasn't been much wrist slapping because not many have complained (as they probably should).
Anyway, some of the entries/content/posts people refer to here in the blogs are over my head ATM... but something tells me I shouldn't bother reading them anytime soon in order to "get up to snuff".
Anyway, some of the entries/content/posts people refer to here in the blogs are over my head ATM... but something tells me I shouldn't bother reading them anytime soon in order to "get up to snuff".
Oct 14, 2018, 2:29 pm
#959
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,374
VFTW is cited alongside The Points Guy in a new McKinsey report on airline mileage programs.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/...yalty-programs
Ctrl+F "Exhibit 3"
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/...yalty-programs
Ctrl+F "Exhibit 3"
Oct 15, 2018, 2:13 am
#960
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
So I take it that @gleff doesn't post here on FT much? Sorry, I'm out of the loop.