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-   -   Do points and miles resources bear some responsibility for point devaluations? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/external-miles-points-resources/1517792-do-points-miles-resources-bear-some-responsibility-point-devaluations.html)

Beckles Nov 5, 2013 3:39 pm


Originally Posted by 84fiero (Post 21713747)
VFTW has a post on the "real reason for the UA deval"...

http://boardingarea.com/viewfromthew...-explanations/

Of course I think the most popular explanation is that United is greedy, but the explanation offered by VFTW has a glaring error in it:

Originally Posted by VFTW
And want to know how significant it is? United’s most recent SEC 10-Q filing lists the loyalty program as one of its three major assets along with aircraft and route authorities. It lists the frequent flyer program as having nearly $5 billion in short and long-term deferred revenue.

The deferred revenue is not an asset, it is a liability. They can't sell the 'deferred revenue' to anyone for $5 billion, that number represents the portion of revenue from selling and issuing miles that they can not recognize until the miles are redeemed, which by the way leads us to one of the biggest inaccuracies I've seen repeated on Flyertalk too many times to count: Award tickets are 'non-revenue' tickets. That is false, they are revenue tickets to the airline, when you redeem an award they recognize revenue from that redemption by the conversion of deferred revenue to current revenue.

Originally Posted by yerffej201 (Post 21720902)
Don't stereotype. :confused:

I'm fairly sure the devaluation is from the singups from cc's. There's no way spending 5k to get at least $650 in value (and if you value ua at 1.5cpm or more), at least $750-1000 is sustainable for the banks.
I would say MS is a very small portion of miles generated.

I have never believed that credit card bonuses are borne solely by the credit card companies, I believe the airlines themselves subsidize the sign-up bonuses.

Originally Posted by Mbcijim10 (Post 21721025)
Two things I'm curios about.

The banks buy the points. Instead of inflating points needed, certainly United could charge Chase more for them. Why inflate instate of charge more?

Chase has prepurchased their miles anyway, so they can't charge more to Chase any time soon, but say United threatened that when Chase has burned through it's prepurchased miles, then Chase responds by saying, no problem, we'll award cardmembers .75 miles/dollar instead of 1 mile/dollar, I think United would ultimately lose revenue on such a decision.


Originally Posted by Mbcijim10 (Post 21721025)
Also, my guess is United keeps a reserve or escrow account for points issued. They are essentially a currency and U would need to pay for them. If you inflate them all of a sudden you can lower your reserves and the money can come out of escrow and into U's pocket. Wouldn't this be a great way to boost earnings short term?

There is no specific reserve for the liability of miles, though if you devalued them enough you could decrease your deferred revenue and recognize it as current revenue, it doesn't actually generate any cash for the airline.

kokonutz Nov 5, 2013 3:51 pm


Originally Posted by Beckles (Post 21733928)
Of course I think the most popular explanation is that United is greedy, but the explanation offered by VFTW has a glaring error in it:
The deferred revenue is not an asset, it is a liability. They can't sell the 'deferred revenue' to anyone for $5 billion, that number represents the portion of revenue from selling and issuing miles that they can not recognize until the miles are redeemed, which by the way leads us to one of the biggest inaccuracies I've seen repeated on Flyertalk too many times to count: Award tickets are 'non-revenue' tickets. That is false, they are revenue tickets to the airline, when you redeem an award they recognize revenue from that redemption by the conversion of deferred revenue to current revenue.
I have never believed that credit card bonuses are borne solely by the credit card companies, I believe the airlines themselves subsidize the sign-up bonuses.

Ah, NOW we are getting somewhere.

So...by increasing miles required for awards, is United decreasing that $5B deferred revenue liability? If so, is it by the same percentage as the miles required increased!?

IOW, does this change cook the books in Smisek's favor?

Beckles Nov 5, 2013 3:56 pm


Originally Posted by kokonutz (Post 21733998)
Ah, NOW we are getting somewhere.

So...by increasing miles required for awards, is United decreasing that $5B deferred revenue liability? If so, is it by the same percentage as the miles required increased!?

IOW, does this change cook the books in Smisek's favor?

In six months (after they release Q1 earnings and the balance sheet reflects 3/31/14 liability for the deferred revenue) you should have a good indication of that if there's a big decrease in the deferred revenue.

In reality I think the more likely explanation is that partner awards cost UA more than the incremental cost they can use for their own metal awards, so the award chart change really just better reflects the true cost to UA of those different awards and has little affect on the liability for those awards.

84fiero Nov 5, 2013 4:09 pm


Originally Posted by yerffej201 (Post 21720902)
Don't stereotype. :confused:

I'm fairly sure the devaluation is from the singups from cc's. There's no way spending 5k to get at least $650 in value (and if you value ua at 1.5cpm or more), at least $750-1000 is sustainable for the banks.
I would say MS is a very small portion of miles generated.

The bank doesn't care what the value of the award ticket you redeem is; they only need to make sure that their cut of the swipe fees, annual fees, and other fees from the card exceed their costs to purchase and administer the miles.

The airline obviously cares what their costs for award tickets are, compared to what they earn from the miles business side of it - both for their own metal and partner redemptions.

Mbcijim10 Nov 5, 2013 4:45 pm

Digging through their annual report now to see what I find, maybe this can help:

Loyalty Program. United’s MileagePlus program builds customer loyalty by offering awards and services to program participants. Members in this program earn mileage credit for flights on United, Continental, United Express, airlines in Star Alliance and certain other airlines that participate in the program. Members can also earn miles by purchasing the goods and services of our network of non-airline partners, such as credit card issuers, retail merchants, hotels and car rental companies. Members can redeem mileage credits for free, discounted or upgraded travel and non-travel awards.

Under the Company’s Consolidated Amended and Restated Co-Branded Card Marketing Services Agreement dated June 9, 2011 (the “Co-Brand Agreement”) with Chase Bank USA, N.A. (“Chase”), loyalty program members accrue frequent flyer miles for making purchases using co-branded credit cards issued by Chase. The Co-Brand Agreement provides for joint marketing of the Company’s credit card program and provides Chase with other benefits such as permission to market to the Company’s customer database.

In 2012, 4.7 million MileagePlus travel awards were used on United and Continental. These awards represented 7.4% and 6.8% of United’s and Continental’s total revenue passenger miles in 2012, respectively. Total miles redeemed for travel on United and Continental in 2012, including class-of-service upgrades, represented 83% of the total miles redeemed. In addition, excluding miles redeemed for travel on United and Continental, MileagePlus members redeemed miles for approximately 1.6 million awards in 2012 as compared to 1.8 million in 2011. These non-United and non-Continental travel awards include United Club memberships, car and hotel awards, merchandise and travel on another air carrier. The decrease in the number of non-United and non-Continental travel awards redeemed in 2012 compared to 2011 was due to a decrease in hotel, car and United Club redemptions.

NOTE 19 - ADVANCED PURCHASE OF MILES
The Company previously sold frequent flyer miles to Chase which the Company recorded as Advanced Purchase of Miles. UAL has the right, but is not required, to repurchase the pre-purchased miles from Chase during the term of the agreement. The balance of pre-purchased miles is eligible to be allocated to MileagePlus members’ account by 2017. The Co-Brand Agreement contains termination penalties that may require United and Continental to make certain payments and repurchase outstanding pre-purchased miles in cases such as the Company’s insolvency, bankruptcy or other material breaches. The Company has recorded these amounts as advanced purchase of miles in the liabilities section of the Company’s consolidated balance sheets.

Mbcijim10 Nov 5, 2013 4:52 pm

Revenue in 2011 was also impacted by certain accounting changes, as described in Note 2 to the financial statements in Item 8 of this report. In conjunction with these accounting changes, the Company recorded a special adjustment in 2011 to decrease frequent flyer deferred revenue and increase revenue by $107 million in connection with a modification to The Consolidated Amended and Restated Co-Branded Card Marketing Services Agreement dated June 9, 2011 (the “Co-Brand Agreement”) with Chase Bank USA, N.A. (“Chase”).

Other operating revenue was up $226 million, or 6.8%, in 2012 as compared to 2011, which was primarily due to a change in the deferral rate related to the sales of credit card miles in conjunction with the modification of the Co-Brand Agreement in accordance with Accounting Standards Update 2009-13, Multiple-Deliverable Revenue Arrangements - a consensus of the FASB Emerging Issues Task Force (“ASU 2009-13”), which was adopted in 2011. Other operating revenue also increased due to additional sales of aircraft fuel to a third party.

fti Nov 5, 2013 5:20 pm


Originally Posted by Beckles (Post 21733928)
one of the biggest inaccuracies I've seen repeated on Flyertalk too many times to count: Award tickets are 'non-revenue' tickets. That is false, they are revenue tickets to the airline, when you redeem an award they recognize revenue from that redemption by the conversion of deferred revenue to current revenue.

There is a thread on the Delta forum where there were multiple posts by someone who really didn't understand this concept of miles being a liability, being considered revenue when redeemed, etc.

kokonutz Nov 6, 2013 2:22 pm


Originally Posted by Beckles (Post 21734031)
In six months (after they release Q1 earnings and the balance sheet reflects 3/31/14 liability for the deferred revenue) you should have a good indication of that if there's a big decrease in the deferred revenue.

In reality I think the more likely explanation is that partner awards cost UA more than the incremental cost they can use for their own metal awards, so the award chart change really just better reflects the true cost to UA of those different awards and has little affect on the liability for those awards.

But the dollar cost of UA to give away seats that they calculate they will not sell is close to zero, right?

Does UNITED pay cash money to Lufhansa when I fly LH F on MP miles?

sbm12 Nov 6, 2013 4:38 pm


Originally Posted by kokonutz (Post 21740028)
Does UNITED pay cash money to Lufhansa when I fly LH F on MP miles?

There are bilateral agreements between the airlines on the cost/price of redemption for any particular bit of travel. This applies to awards just like it does to revenue tickets. And to lounge access and other benefits. And, yes, the numbers are reconciled from time to time. I don't know the frequency of such transactions but they definitely have to "true up" the accounts from time to time.

It is also worth noting that just because two airlines are partners that doesn't mean there is necessarily an agreed upon price/rate for an award redemption. Because DL SkyMiles cannot be redeemed for AF F there might not be a line-item for that option in their agreement, for example.

kokonutz Nov 7, 2013 11:49 am

Got this unsolicited email today with a perspective on the OP:



The recent devaluation (of about 10% to 85%) by United of their MileagePlus awards for international premium travel has many a loyal member upset, if not Every Loyal Member. I'm even a little saddened, as I currently have 617,435 United miles - although I'm anything but loyal. (More about 'dignified disloyalty' in my next email entitled Have you been hoodwinked by the Astutest Lie?)

So, many are upset. But is United to blame? I don't believe so. The Internet is overrun with "bloggers" and forum members trading ways to cheat the system.

From highly questionable to downright nefarious, these 'ways' have repercussions for those who would never freeload. Those who always pay their way, although perhaps prudently.

One very dubious scheme has been to exploit the generosity of ubiquitous Chase credit card offers to new sign-ups, by simultaneously (with several opened browsers) signing-up multiple times for various offers. There are other schemes I don't really even care to know about and don't even know fully about the browser scheme.

Little wonder United's award currency, and thus potential demand, vastly outstrips United's ability to supply seats. Little wonder the airline succumbed to the temptation to devalue. Think United wants every Tom, Dick, and Harry rubbing elbows with their premium-class paying passengers? Or taking pictures of silverware and slippers in First Class - bounty to share with their readers? United is fed up with the boastful "What First Class is like, and how you can get there for nothing, too" bloggers.

Were you or I running United, we'd probably not punish, inadvertently, the loyal mass to fix the royal mess scammers etc have created, but that's why you or I aren't running United.

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artemis Nov 7, 2013 12:24 pm

Pretty stupid email, if you ask me. When it comes to miles-earning credit cards the email writer is clearly talking about things he knows little about (as he admits himself), and ultimately United's responsible for how many miles it sells to credit card companies and how much it charges those companies for each mile.

84fiero Nov 7, 2013 5:46 pm


Originally Posted by kokonutz (Post 21745281)
Got this unsolicited email today with a perspective on the OP:


...Think United wants every Tom, Dick, and Harry rubbing elbows with their premium-class paying passengers? Or taking pictures of silverware and slippers in First Class - bounty to share with their readers? United is fed up with the boastful "What First Class is like, and how you can get there for nothing, too" bloggers...
Similar sentiments have shown up elsewhere, not just with this UA issue. I find it silly though... a few random thoughts on it:

- Does any airline, especially U.S. carriers, really care who is in their F seats? I know some pax, including some FT'ers think F should be the domain of only those with enough class or whatever. I doubt the airlines do.

- The airlines certainly like to market and brag about their premium products. I don't know why it's inherently bad that blogs do as well.

- Some writers such as the email koko received above act as if the airline is continually forced to hand over free seats at ridiculously low saver levels to everyone who wants them, thanks to so many miles having been issued. However the airline controls the amount of such seats made available - and presumably isn't making more available than its rev mgmt determines it makes sense to do. That process doesn't change, regardless of how many outstanding miles exist. Sure, they may end up having more people ultimately redeem for those seats than might have if fewer people had fewer miles...but it's not quite the dynamic that some folks portray it to be.

yerffej201 Nov 8, 2013 12:13 pm

Sometimes they do, now that i think about it. look at aeroplan. I'm pretty sure that deval was NOT as a result of the lboggers.

Kagehitokiri Nov 9, 2013 11:59 am

"some" - obviously yes, but if you want to blame people, technically airlines sell to credit card companies and credit card companies pay for signups

oliver2002 Nov 14, 2013 6:34 am

Some insight on the topic: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...l#post21731400

Basically LH is OK with people using loopholes, but when it gets viral they tend to close the gap pdq.


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