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BR7 and 8 (TPE/SFO): EVA flight attendants demand proper rest time in sit-in protest

BR7 and 8 (TPE/SFO): EVA flight attendants demand proper rest time in sit-in protest

Old Jan 21, 18, 12:02 pm
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BR7 and 8 (TPE/SFO): EVA flight attendants demand proper rest time in sit-in protest

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3346200

Flight attendants serving Sunday's BR8 (6:30am arrival same day) only have 28 hours of rest in San Francisco then serving Monday 12:20pm BR7 to TPE. Questions:

1. I don't know how BR schedules FAs. How about BR17/18 and BR27/28, which are evening departures from TPE and SFO? Does crew get more hours to rest?
2. Why can't BR schedule BR8 crew to serve BR17/BR27 return? If BR7/8 is daily later, would this problem go away?
3. How about United, which serves SFO-TPE? When UA871/872 used 787-9 and sCO FAs, my impression is that FAs arrived in TPE in the evening, then served the next morning back to SFO.
4. How come no protest on LAX and SEA, which also have daytime flights?

Are FAs asking too much? How much rest are they supposed to get?

The image was copied from BR Chinese site. Time is Taipei local time. English site has no such news. The top portion is Sunday morning's BR8. The bottom is evening BR28.

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Old Jan 21, 18, 2:55 pm
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Originally Posted by sfo3388 View Post
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3346200

Flight attendants serving Sunday's BR8 (6:30am arrival same day) only have 28 hours of rest in San Francisco then serving Monday 12:20pm BR7 to TPE. Questions:

1. I don't know how BR schedules FAs. How about BR17/18 and BR27/28, which are evening departures from TPE and SFO? Does crew get more hours to rest?
2. Why can't BR schedule BR8 crew to serve BR17/BR27 return? If BR7/8 is daily later, would this problem go away?
3. How about United, which serves SFO-TPE? When UA871/872 used 787-9 and sCO FAs, my impression is that FAs arrived in TPE in the evening, then served the next morning back to SFO.
4. How come no protest on LAX and SEA, which also have daytime flights?

Are FAs asking too much? How much rest are they supposed to get?

The image was copied from BR Chinese site. Time is Taipei local time. English site has no such news. The top portion is Sunday morning's BR8. The bottom is evening BR28.

1. Those trips are 4-day trips. In addition, the rest schedule is much more fit for jet lag(the flights depart around Taiwan time 4pm meaning FAs are well rested). The morning flights depart at Taiwan time 3-5am, meaning flight attendants did not get a full nights sleep before working again. This schedule only exists for the flight that departs Sunday from TPE and departs SFO on Monday!
2. The flight is not daily. It would create issues with scheduling.
3. No idea
4. SEA flights are only 3x weekly. They have long rest. LAX flights are you arrive in the morning, you leave via the next day's midnight flight(normally BR11).

Rest time is well above legal standards. They are supposed to get at least 20 hours layover after a flight more than 8 hours. EVA proposed to them one additional crew on the flight, which was rejected by the union.

Part of the grief(but not aired publicly) is that the pilots get longer layovers compared to FAs(5 day trip for SFO etc.) and they feel like that is not fair. This will never be said out loud, because you will just create animosity between the two working groups!

BR made record revenue last year, but that does not mean that the airline will have such great success every year. The current issue is that they do not want to work two daytime flights in a row without longer rest because daytime flights are more toiling in terms of service and pax needs(barely anyone sleeps). I feel part of the fear the management has is that if they give in this one time for these long-hauls, they will demand that all long-hauls be changed, and that is costly. They also don't want to change the turns because if they change PEK or TOY, then who is to say the next most tiring ones won't be KIX and ICN(comparable length) and before we know it, they will want those to be overnighters too!
They aren't getting any pity from the media(BR and the Evergreen Group has excellent media relations, they often quash and quell stories) and the airline is not CI...the govt is not going to allow them to 1.strike without a total stall in negotiations 2. create disorder against a private company. That would send a bad message to all the private companies. In fact, when they complained to MOL, they were told that the flights were legal and nothing could be done.

These flights are not the only ones being protested.
BR715/716 to PEK: They want it to become a one night layover instead of a direct turn.
BR108(from KHH)/192/198 to TOY: One night turnaround instead of direct turn, especially 108, whose flight time is almost the same as SIN(yet the crew deplane in SIN).
BR315/316 to BNE: They want 4-5 days instead of 3 and simplified service onboard. The company has agreed to simplify service, meaning cuts will be made in procedure but rest time will not be changed. They claim that with the reduction in freq. that they previously filed, it will return to 4-6 day trips.
BR265/266 to PNH: Although not being disputed this time, this flight is one of the very long direct turns they do. However, they are ok with this because the flight is long enough so that they can eat during the flight and nap during the turn(like SHA from TSA).

EDIT: Just to add on, EVA Air recently calculated the routes using BAM by Jeppesen with the CAA and found they are well within the guidelines prescribed. They also meet AOR and all rest rules. However, the direct turns last year had 68 different reports of illegal labor overtime(longer than 12 hours according to the Article 84-1 they have with FAs) and the airline was fined.

Last edited by hayzel7773; Jan 21, 18 at 3:55 pm
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Old Jan 21, 18, 7:53 pm
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While acknowledging the point about the back-to-back daytime flights being more taxing on FAs, I just don't see the BR situation being so much of an outlier compared to the industry standard. When I flew CI F, the FAs also only overnighted in SFO before returning. And I know BA schedules FA return after one night on many of their LH routes, which means barely over 24 hours in terms of time from scheduled arrival to departure.

I'd have more sympathy for the BR FAs if I actually got good service on my LH BR flights.
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Old Jan 21, 18, 8:11 pm
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Originally Posted by gengar View Post
While acknowledging the point about the back-to-back daytime flights being more taxing on FAs, I just don't see the BR situation being so much of an outlier compared to the industry standard. When I flew CI F, the FAs also only overnighted in SFO before returning. And I know BA schedules FA return after one night on many of their LH routes, which means barely over 24 hours in terms of time from scheduled arrival to departure.

I'd have more sympathy for the BR FAs if I actually got good service on my LH BR flights.
This.

To add on, BR has been terrifyingly nice to the union and its members compared to past years. The union needs to walk that fine line of keeping management that way. The moment management is fed up, we could see escalation like previous years that resulted in some pretty harsh actions and some pretty nasty words be exchanged.
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Old Jan 21, 18, 9:46 pm
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Originally Posted by sfo3388 View Post
3. How about United, which serves SFO-TPE? When UA871/872 used 787-9 and sCO FAs, my impression is that FAs arrived in TPE in the evening, then served the next morning back to SFO.
AFIAK - your impression was wrong.

The UA crews have an entire day off in TPE before returning. This means when they arrive in Monday evening, they will not be scheduled for return until Wednesday morning.
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Old Jan 21, 18, 10:04 pm
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Originally Posted by hayzel7773 View Post
This.

To add on, BR has been terrifyingly nice to the union and its members compared to past years. The union needs to walk that fine line of keeping management that way. The moment management is fed up, we could see escalation like previous years that resulted in some pretty harsh actions and some pretty nasty words be exchanged.
I don't understand the need of overnight in Tokyo and Beijing.

I read the news. FAs complain that they can't sleep during the day and often get sick. "Can't sleep during the day" does not seem to be a good reason.
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Old Jan 21, 18, 10:34 pm
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Originally Posted by sfo3388 View Post
I don't understand the need of overnight in Tokyo and Beijing.

I read the news. FAs complain that they can't sleep during the day and often get sick. "Can't sleep during the day" does not seem to be a good reason.
According to their Article 84-1 agreement, crew are allowed 12 hours straight on duty(excluding any time spent in crew rest areas). Keep in mind EVA Air flight attendants must report two hours before departure at the company, meaning that they must leave Taipei 3 hours prior(2.5 for TSA flights). A roundtrip to Tokyo is around 7hr 5min block time(3 hours there, 4 hours 5min back) hours long, with the 2 hours before the flight(only two before is considered on-duty) is 9.05, the layover of 2 hours and 5min in Tokyo makes it 11hours 10-15min. That leaves BR 50 min grace before the turn is considered illegal in terms of labor laws(still legal under AOR). They absolutely hate working these flights(highest # of absences) and find it especially tiring because pax on these routes are demanding.

If you look at the protest, you will notice the 2nd NRT and HND flights are not included. 2nd HND is already overnight and I guess 2nd NRT was not as tiring(weird).

As for PEK, the often long delays lead to very very long taxi and flight times or hold times. In fact, EVA holds a significant amount of extra fuel just for these instances. Last year, 5.48%(or 20) flights of the 365 days were over the 12 hour limit. That is a lot.
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Old Jan 21, 18, 10:45 pm
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The BR crew seem to have it good with most destinations. I was surprised to learn that KUL and SIN are overnight stops, especially since the MH and SQ crew do turnarounds. And now they're demanding for PEK to be overnight?

On a somewhat related matter, I noticed that a couple of seats on BR216 SIN-TPE were occupied by FAs. I was told they were deadheading, having operated TPE-SIN earlier that day, but the other crew got to spend the night in SIN. Why the split?
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Old Jan 21, 18, 10:58 pm
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Originally Posted by sfo3388 View Post
I don't understand the need of overnight in Tokyo and Beijing.

I read the news. FAs complain that they can't sleep during the day and often get sick. "Can't sleep during the day" does not seem to be a good reason.
​​​​​A new chart posted by EVA Air discussing the duty time for each turnaround and the number of flights deemed illegal by MOL in addition to the reasons. Since it is in Chinese, I have translated it.

1. TPE-PEK Duty time* is 10hrs35-10hr45min(depending on the day's schedule)
# of times operated in 2017: 365
# of times they went over the limit: 20
% of flights over limit: 5.48%
Reasons were: Airport Traffic Flow Control, Military airspace control, Weather
2. TPE-NRT: 11hr5min-11hr10min Duty Time*
# of times operated in '17: 725
# of times they went over the limit: 17
% of flights over the limit: 2.34%
Reasons: Airport Traffic Flow Control, Bad Weather
3. KHH-NRT: 10hr45min Duty Time*
# of times operated in '17: 363
# of times they went over the limit: 3
% of flights over the limit: 0.83%
Reasons: Bad weather and medical emergency
4. TSA-HND Duty time* 9hrs30min.
# of times operated in '17: 364
# of times they went over the limit: 1
% of flights over the limit: 0.27%
Reason: Aircraft went MX

*Duty time includes the flight time, the turnaround time, and the 2 hours prior to departure.

EVA is also revising the promise to add staff to flights. They will only add people when necessary(prior to this, they said they would add one for every flight for SFO) and if load factors for that day are below 70%, they will take one flight attendant out. If loads are below 50%, they will take out two.

In addition, BNE is already a 4-6 day trip because of reduced frequency. They are reversing the decision to cut service and will maintain the current service procedures(probably retaliatory).
SFO: 3-day SFO trips will only occur 52 times this year(every Sunday departure from TPE). That means that of the 4600 FAs, each one will only work it once every 6 months(this includes reserve). The company also pointed out that fellow carrier CX(whom TFAU said had better working conditions and got their union to support this cause) also does 3-day turns for their HKG-SFO flights. In fact, their outstation rest time is actually a little shorter than EVAs.

TFAU now demands management come negotiate with them at Evergreen Marine in front of the FAs. However, with the history of TFAU and the often violent protests(or riots) they have(chucking stacks of paper at managers, egging the company, defaming their own companies uniform, blocking managers from leaving etc.) I highly doubt any manager in their right mind will come out to negotiate.

It seems management may be hitting that breaking point.

Last edited by hayzel7773; Jan 21, 18 at 11:32 pm
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Old Jan 21, 18, 11:00 pm
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Originally Posted by SilverChris View Post
The BR crew seem to have it good with most destinations. I was surprised to learn that KUL and SIN are overnight stops, especially since the MH and SQ crew do turnarounds. And now they're demanding for PEK to be overnight?

On a somewhat related matter, I noticed that a couple of seats on BR216 SIN-TPE were occupied by FAs. I was told they were deadheading, having operated TPE-SIN earlier that day, but the other crew got to spend the night in SIN. Why the split?
Aircraft load changes. Low loads mean they will subtract crew from the flight(while still maintaining a legal #). It was probably full going to SIN but empty the next day, hence the decision to PNC crew back. By deadheading them back, they save the hotel,bus, and per diem. EVA crew have it well deadheading, they get to ride in Business with the full service compliment(minus alcohol of course).

Longest EVA Air direct turns are PNH and NRT. Everything else is like a 2-3.5hour flight time each way. Everything beyond that is considered a destination where they will stop.

Never knew SQ does direct turn. I saw them getting out of a bus in the departure hall at TPE once so assumed they were overnighting.

Last edited by hayzel7773; Jan 21, 18 at 11:25 pm
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Old Jan 22, 18, 12:05 am
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Originally Posted by hayzel7773 View Post
Never knew SQ does direct turn. I saw them getting out of a bus in the departure hall at TPE once so assumed they were overnighting.
After asking around for bit I realised I might not be entirely correct - the SQ crew do overnight in TPE, but it's definitely been a turnaround in the past. There are flights of comparable lengths like SIN-BLR which are still turns, so it's not unprecedented.

Anyway, apologies for the OT
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Old Jan 22, 18, 12:41 am
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Originally Posted by SilverChris View Post
The BR crew seem to have it good with most destinations. I was surprised to learn that KUL and SIN are overnight stops, especially since the MH and SQ crew do turnarounds. And now they're demanding for PEK to be overnight?

On a somewhat related matter, I noticed that a couple of seats on BR216 SIN-TPE were occupied by FAs. I was told they were deadheading, having operated TPE-SIN earlier that day, but the other crew got to spend the night in SIN. Why the split?
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Old Jan 22, 18, 1:39 am
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wow...these BR crew and their union are really too much I feel.
28 hrs layover for a TPAC flight is more than enough.
The crew also get to sleep for quite a few hours (3+ at least) during the flight.
It is not like they are working through the entire 12 hour or whatever flight.
They are supposed to be working, not on vacation.

UA crew has a SFO-HNL/OGG turnaround flight that is about 5.5 hrs each way!
That is like working a Transpac flight with no rest other than the 30 min+ break in between the flights.
It is super rough at the end of it all but it is still doable.
Really...complaining about no layover on a 3.5hr each way flight...

Personally, I think BR crew just want more money and kinda spoilt.
The layovers give them more per diem as well and add to their work time so they get paid a lot more.

i'm ranting away but some people really dont know how good they have it.
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Old Jan 22, 18, 9:18 am
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Originally Posted by HawaiiO View Post
wow...these BR crew and their union are really too much I feel.
28 hrs layover for a TPAC flight is more than enough.
The crew also get to sleep for quite a few hours (3+ at least) during the flight.
It is not like they are working through the entire 12 hour or whatever flight.
They are supposed to be working, not on vacation.

UA crew has a SFO-HNL/OGG turnaround flight that is about 5.5 hrs each way!
That is like working a Transpac flight with no rest other than the 30 min+ break in between the flights.
It is super rough at the end of it all but it is still doable.
Really...complaining about no layover on a 3.5hr each way flight...

Personally, I think BR crew just want more money and kinda spoilt.
The layovers give them more per diem as well and add to their work time so they get paid a lot more.

i'm ranting away but some people really dont know how good they have it.
No additional pay for layovers in terms of work time but just extra per diem(about NT$100/hour).

Mgmt clearly isn't giving in because they know that the hours are comparable to other carriers and the flights are well within the legal limits.
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Old Jan 23, 18, 8:04 am
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Originally Posted by SilverChris View Post
The BR crew seem to have it good with most destinations. I was surprised to learn that KUL and SIN are overnight stops, especially since the MH and SQ crew do turnarounds. And now they're demanding for PEK to be overnight?

On a somewhat related matter, I noticed that a couple of seats on BR216 SIN-TPE were occupied by FAs. I was told they were deadheading, having operated TPE-SIN earlier that day, but the other crew got to spend the night in SIN. Why the split?
It's the same union that caused the strike for CI 1.5 years ago.

With what happened 1.5 years ago you can bet BR will not inch back anything that complies the rules.

The union just don't understand what are negotiations and what's enough. Negotiations does not mean the unions take all, or there won't be another negotiation.
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