pubsmeister

Dulciusexasperis, I appreciate the comprehensive response. While I understand your concerns regarding transit time, this is less of an issue for us. We usually will drive to our next location in the evening- after dinner (we're early eaters), when sightseeing, touring, and hiking are out; with most Swiss stops 2-3 hours apart at most, totally feasible. We have done this in England, France, Israel, and Norway without issue. As to my teenager that wants to come home early, I'm working on it, but wanted to hear from folks with experience traveling in the area. With greg5's response, I'm pretty convinced that we will not go all the way over to Geneva and if she needs to leave early will do so from Zurich.

I get that a "chocolate tour" sounds kitschy, but this kind of tour is a perfect thing to do on the day of arrival to Zurich. Being out and about on a casual walking tour has worked well for us in the past, in dealing with jet lag. After reading posts on this stream I have changed our travel strategy. Rather than trying to see "everything", I think we will head south to the Zermatt area and spend a few days there, then head back up to Lucerne area for a few days before flying home. If (hopefully not!) I need to take one kid to the airport its only 1.5 hours away, and my wife and other kid can do something fun while I'm gone. My hiking comments were to let folks know we are not hard core athletes, but still enjoy hiking. We did Pulpit Rock in Norway last year, and had a great time. If experienced Swiss hikers want to direct us to locations where the trails are not quite as steep or long, but still picturesque, I'm all ears.

Regarding hotels, if one is not familiar with an area local unaffiliated hotels can be awesome, terrible, or somewhere in between. The link you put in above looks great; any thoughts about where you would stay closer to Lucerne?

greg5

There aren't so many places to really do a 'Chocolate tour'. Lindt & Sprüngli is working on this. Maestrani in Flawil is probably one of the closer to Zürich, but Aeschbacher in Root near Luzern is probably more interesting. But I must admit I've only been to Maestrani. You can get cheaper chocolates at the Lindt shop. And as it's not far from where I live, I go there quite a bit. The chocolate is really fresh. However, other than that, there isn't currently much from Lindt as I've mentioned.

The Rigi has some pretty good and easy hiking atop it, if you take the trains or lifts to the top. The Uetliberg, which is above Zürich, is also a nice, and pretty easy walk. There are many others if you look around. Check out the MySwitzerland website for more hiking ideas.

dulciusexasperis

An interesting way of doing things with the travel after dinner. I can see how you do this with a car but it would be a bit more cumbersome with train travel. You would have presumably checked out of the hotel in the morning and need to leave luggage somewhere until you were ready to travel after dinner. Doable but a bit awkward and time wasting.

If you are only going to do Zurich, Zermatt, Lucerne, a train would seem better for those few moves. A car would be sitting around much of the time not being used. Part of that depends on your flight times. What time does your flight arrive in Zurich and what time does your return flight leave? For example, if you arrive in Zurich early morning, you could get to Zermatt at a reasonable time on the same day. If your return is an afternoon flight, you could go directly from Lucerne to the airport on your departure day but if it is an early morning flight, you would need to be in Zurich the night before. The more detail you provide, the more relevant suggestions can be.

Switzerland is one country where train travel vs. car is a difficult choice. I like both but unless I am going to use the car daily, I would probably opt for the train. I would just look for the best pass for my needs. https://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-holida...avel-pass.html

Re hotels, yes you can get disappointed. I am old enough to remember the first Holiday Inns and they build their business on the premise that you could count on every room in every one of them being almost identical. You can see that as a plus or you can see it as pretty darn boring. I see it as beyond boring. It would be pretty rare to book a decent hotel in Switzerland and not get what you paid for. The only issue is in people's expectations. I find independent hotels in the UK for example as being much more of a gamble in that regard.

The hotel I linked was only an example, we have not stayed there. Last time we were in that area we stayed in Tasch. Just showed up and picked one hotel out of a dozen or so within walking distance of each other. It is considered normal to ask to see a room before you take it and that usually eliminates disappointments. We stayed at this hotel in Tasch with a view of the Matterhorn (when not hidden by clouds) from our room. Walliserhof: Hotel Tasch is as far as you can go by car. Zermatt is accessible only by train from there. If you go with a car, free hotel parking is a plus. Those leaving a car at Tasch and staying in a hotel in Zermatt, must pay to park and take the train. An added cost obviously.

Note on that site and the earlier one I gave as an example, the 'best price guarantee' if you book direct. Again, I urge phoning the hotels directly and asking for a price. Needing 2 rooms gives you an even better chance of getting a better price. Usually they will ask to e-mail you an 'offer'. The longer your stay the better the offer. We just returned from a 10 night stay in the Davos-Klosters area. It was our second stay at the hotel. A 3 star boutique hotel (21 rooms) with an award winning restaurant. How much? How about $75 US dollars per night/per room. We booked 2 rooms at that price and on arrival, as returning guests, we were upgraded to 2 of their best rooms. Current third party site price is $109 US for the same standard room (without the upgrade). I should note that this particular hotel is indeed a real bargain. We don't expect to pay that little in general. Usually around twice that. But it does show that bargains are to be had when you take the time to do the research rather than just clicking on the usual suspect third party parasites and then clicking on the first name you recognize like, Hilton, Marriott, etc.

We have no favourite hotel in Lucerne, seeing that is a day trip destination rather than as a place to stay. We prefer smaller villages to stay in. We have stayed in Rigi Katbad at this hotel:
Hotel Restaurant Bergsonne, das heimelige 3-Stern-Haus auf Rigi Kaltbad

I may have given you the wrong impression re a chocolate tour. We have nothing against enjoying Swiss chocolates and my wife is a major fan of Sprungli. Sitting outside Cafe Sprungli for a coffee or lunch etc. is a must stop for us in Zurich if time allows. You can do tours or you can just visit Sprungli at 21 Banhoffstrasse and experience all you need to discover about Swiss chocolate in one place.

xooz

Interesting thread... makes me want to set up a quick trip before the summer is over. The Davos/Wiesen area looks great. Question is... car or train? Assuming we would fly into ZRH and travel there to stay for 3-4 nights. If we would be eating dinner out, and venturing around the area to get familiar, would a car be better than local bus or other transport?

greg5

Davos is pretty small. You wouldn't really need a car if you just stay around Davos itself. Take the train to Landquart and transfer to Davos.

dulciusexasperis

Well, we have spent 10 nights twice in the Davos-Klosters area and not yet exhausted the hiking possibilities. It all depends on what you want to do with your time. The Davos-Klosters Guest Card gets you free transportation on all the bus/train and cable cars in the area, so there is no real need for a car.
https://www.davos.ch/fileadmin/user_...2018-19_en.pdf

I know of no other area in Switzerland that offers such a comprehensive Guest Card program.

The only issue with the hotel in Wiesen is that the last bus runs from Davos Platz to Wiesen at 7.25 pm. So you either have to eat early in Davos or eat at the hotel if you don't have a car. Nothing wrong with the hotel restaurant, it has won awards, it's just a question of being limited.

dulciusexasperis

Re the Lucerne area, I forgot about the new development on the Burgenstock.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/juyoung.../#30c943182406

In theory, you can stay for as little as !35 CHF per night/per room. https://www.buergenstock.ch/en/hotels/taverne But something like 300CHF is more likely unless you book on the week when no one else want to be there.

KayVeeBee

You could do what the Swiss would do. A 17yo is an adult, and is expected to find her way to the airport on her own. You can get supersaver tickets on line (since the departure is fixed anyway) that will make the train trip a lot cheaper. Keeps you from loosing half or more of a day driving to the airport and back.

pubsmeister

Just back from Switzerland

Got home yesterday. Thanks for everyone's input. We had a great time. The weather was spectacular, even hot. As previously mentioned one of my kids wanted to come home early; thankfully she relented on this and spent the whole week with us. I know some of you encouraged spending more time in one location, but we ended up spending one day in Zurich, one day in Lucerne (mostly on Mt. Pilatus), two days in Zermatt, two days in Interlocken, and one day checking out Thun and Bern on the way back to Zurich. My points of advice (from an American perspective):

1. Quaint local Swiss hotels mean interacting with very nice people and staying at places with very good breakfast spreads. It also means no air conditioning, no sheets on beds (only a thick blanket), and tiny rooms (even for a family of four). The heat required opening windows, which meant bugs. If you are the kind of person that likes a cold room to sleep in this is a problem in the Summer in Switzerland. Our one night in Zurich we were at the Renaissance, which was the only hotel we stayed at with AC.
2. We decided a rent a car. Had a BMW 530d station wagon- it was great. Driving in Switzerland was no problem. I was on the fence about buying the half fare Swiss travel pass, and ended up not getting them. That was a mistake. We took the train from Tasch to Zermatt, in Zermatt did the Gornergrot, and went to Jungfraujoch. The Jungfraujoch trip alone was about 230 francs each. I would have saved a little bit of money per person buying the half fare pass. If you are going to do many of the typical touristy things the pass is definitely worth it.
3. The hiking highlight was trekking to the Charles Kuomen suspension bridge outside Randa. It requires going up about 4,000 feet in elevation over several miles to get there, then coming back down. Totally worth doing, but it was brutal (I'm in my late fifties).
4. My daughters are vegetarians, so we ate at Hiltl in Zurich, and had lots of ethnic cuisine (Indian, Thai). Food was good, but pretty much every meal was about 100 francs for the four of us.
5. Some parking lots and restaurants did not take credit cards (most do, of course). So if you don't have francs or euros make sure cards are taken. I had to find an ATM once to get cash so we could get out of a parking lot.
6. No problem using US credit cards. Never needed to enter a PIN, even when using kiosks.

Would I go back- definitely. The scenery/landscape is just spectacular in the mountains. We did the toboggan run on Pilatus (it was fun), and the girls did paragliding in Interlocken- they loved it.

shuigao

Since I hijacked the thread and got quite a bit of help from lots of the seniors here, I guess I should also share my experiences ... via a video!

Itinerary:
Day 1: Tour of Geneva
Day 2: DayTrip to France (Chamonix)
Day 3: Day Trip to France (Annecy)
Day 4: Zermatt / Matterhorn (Gornergrat)
✓ 3½hr Train to Zermatt
Day 5: Zermatt / Wengen
✓ 3½hr Train to Wengen
Day 6: Jungfraujoch
Day 7: Day Trip to Bern
Day 8: Männlichen and Grindelwald
Day 9: Rigi Kaltbad
✓ 4½hr Train and Ferry to Rigi Kaltbad
Day 10: Zurich & Home


Thoughts ...

• A couple of my journeys weren't that well researched and ended up being pretty tiring. For example the Wengen to Rigi Kaltbad one was actually 3 train rides + 1 ferry ride + 1 900m uphill walk + 1 gondola ride. It was really tiring doing all those transfers dragging all our 70kg of luggage the whole way.
• Mountain weather is really unpredictable. The week I was there, Zermatt and Jungfrau were forecast for thunderstorms the entire week and yet I managed to get some really clear days for sightseeing and hiking. About the only day I got really screwed was at Rigi Kaltbad where the entire sky was cloudy.
• Swiss food is expensive! I mean, even fast food (KFC) cost us CHF37 for two.
• I ended up saving slightly over CHF100/person on train tickets by going with half fare travelcard instead of swiss travel pass (cheaper jungfraujoch tickets, plus some nicely discounted supersaver tickets for other journeys).
• Don't underestimate the mountains. My wife got altitude sickness after hiking (well ... walking) from gornergrat to rotenboden and ended up puking into her raincoat before we could get back down to zermatt.

KLouis

This is not Switzerland but North/West Europe specific. It's only south of the Alps that you get air-conditioned hotels. As for the windows, in several hotels (especially in modern ones in the UK) one cannot open the windows: owners seem to be afraid that their guest will commit suicide At any rate, when there's a heat wave it is usually much, much better to be in a place close to the Mediterranean instead of "up there"

dulciusexasperis

Well, now that both of you (pubsmeister and shuigao) have done the usual suspect run around trying to see everything trip, you can start thinking about returning and getting to know the country a little better by spending more time in one place.

A few comments on your comments.

I got a chuckle at the no A/C and no sheets. You will find most of Europe does not have A/C and duvets rather than sheets/blankets is the norm. Remember, 'when in Rome, do as the Roman's do.' If you want everything to be the same as you are used to at home, then without meaning to be nasty, I would say you will have to stay at home. I'm sure that isn't what you want to do pubmeister, so don't see these kind of things as a negative, only as different.

Re rail passes and cable car/funicular rides up mountains like Jungfraujoch etc. The card would have saved you a bit but that is also because you did so much of it in one trip. Whether it would save you money or not totally depends on how much you use it obviously. As I think I said on this thread earlier, on a 10 night trip, the only cost we had for transportation was the train from Zurich and back. All our transportation which included bus/train/funicular and cable car rides daily, was free other than that one return ticket and we had no need to rent a car at all. Transportation costs can be expensive in Switzerland, that's for sure but it doesn't have to be.

I would consider 100 CHF for 4 as a pretty cheap meal by Swiss standards. Food is probably the most expensive part of travel in Switzerland. Drink (alcohol) even more so. Again, think different, not negative. There are ways to reduce food and drink costs but you have to do what works there, not do what you do at home. For example, most hotels offer 'half board'. If you look, you will see that most European travellers opt to take half board. Usually, it represents good value for money (by Swiss standards). A hotel may have a main course for 25 CHF if you eat a la carte but offer a 3 course meal for 35 CHF if you take half board for example.

Regarding even KFC being 37 CHF, that also made me chuckle shuigao. First of all, I don't go to Switzerland to eat KFC, I go to each Swiss food and even more particularly, dishes that are specific to the region of Switzerland I am in. If I want to save some money on eating, I go to a Coop or Migros. You will find the food comparable to what you get in a hotel but for roughly half the price and most importantly, it will be Swiss not KFC. Here are some reviews on them: https://community.ricksteves.com/tra...oop-cafeterias
One thing I noted many years ago was how many locals are eating there at lunch time. I mean they are busy and that to me always means you are in the right place. If it isn't good food, the locals wouldn't be eating there.

Not underestimating altitude is indeed an important point if you are going to go up in the mountains to any significant altitude. Any time you go over 2000 metres, you might have a problem. Gornegrat is at over 3000 metres as is Jungfraujoch. You may also have no problem on one occasion and experience it on another occasion. No one is immune to it happening, you just have to be able to recognize the symptoms and descend if it happens and persists. https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/altitude-sickness#1

Regarding heat in summer, go up! Switzerland can get some quite high temperatures in summer and combined with no A/C in hotels, that can give some people a problem. The answer though is not to complain about it but to accept it and plan accordingly. So we normally visit in June or September for that reason. As we go primarily to hike, we certainly don't want to be doing a 1000 metre ascent when it is 30C+/ 86 F+. We also stay in hotels up on a mountainside rather than down in the valleys. A 1000 metres in altitude increase will decrease the temperature by 10C. So while it might be 30C in the valley it will be 20C up the mountain. The difference say between a hotel in Zurich at 406 Metres and Davos at 1560 Metres.

I hope your trips gave you a taste and desire to return for another trip one day. Switzerland is a great country to visit and the more you do, the more you learn about how to do so in ways that get you the most of what you want from your time and money.

PsiFighter37

I got back from Switzerland a couple weeks ago. Here are my thoughts:

-2 days in Geneva: We probably could have spent a little more time here, as we were seriously jetlagged our first day in town, and we spent our second day over the border in France hiking on the mountains (we got a phenomenally gorgeous view of Lac Leman and the surrounding area on a clear day). Food was excellent. The city is expensive, but it's Switzerland - that's the main downside of spending so much time here. That said, I didn't feel like I got a huge amount of value for the money I spent - the Grand Hotel Kempinski as a 'luxury' hotel is definitely pushing it. I would come back, though, and maybe see a few more sights and do some hiking on the eastern side of the city.

-2.5 days in Montreux: we went up into the Swiss Jura and did a hike near Biere on our way there, and I have to say: driving back down towards the lake, with loads of wheat, corn, and other crops ready for harvest was such a beautiful sight. There are so many grapes grown in this part of Switzerland as well (I had no idea there was a decent amount of wine production going on in the country). Montreux itself is quite a bit smaller and has what must be the most expensive cabs I've ever set foot in. It's a charming little city on the northeastern edge of the lake, and one of my fonder memories was doing a morning run and seeing the sun hitting the (still) snow-capped peaks and seeing the gorgeous landscaping. That said, despite it being late August, i.e. prime vacation time, it still felt very sleepy in town. That's a good thing and bad - good because it isn't overrun by tourists, but bad because there were signs (e.g. lots of empty storefronts) that suggested that the town isn't in fantastic shape. There's not a ton of hiking nearby, but we did go up into the mountains and hike part of Col De Jaman, which had some of the less-than-ideal conditions to hike under, namely the parts where we were holding onto large, slippery rocks (from the rain the night before) for dear life.

-Day hike in Bettmeralp: this was a real winner - and thanks to whomever above suggested looking at Riederalp / this area! It was a little detour from going straight to Tasch / Zermatt, but it was well worth it. Gorgeous weather when we were there, and a properly strenuous hike up to Bettmerhorn, followed by a nice, somewhat lazy ridge hike down. Being 9,000 feet up and seeing not only the village (more than 3,000 feet lower) but also the valley where we rode up (which was probably 7,500 feet or so below), with the backdrop of the Aletsch Glacier and other snowcapped mountains, was amazing. I'm not sure I would contemplate a stay up here - it's a mountain village like Zermatt, but smaller - but I'm definitely happy I made the pit stop.

-4.5 days in Zermatt: so...we got really lucky with the weather, in that it only rained and was miserable for 1 full day (our last full day in town). We left at what was a weeklong stretch of rainy, cloudy weather, so in hindsight, this was definitely a gamble. Nonetheless, there is so much hiking to do, and even though we knocked off a bunch - we did a 14-mile hike, a 7-mile hike, and a nearly-9 mile hike, there would still be plenty that we didn't see. The gondolas are expensive - I would definitely research the breakeven cost of a Swiss Pass in the future - but were a handy way to really put your all into a strenuous 1-way hike. The Omnia Hotel is an absolutely phenomenal place to stay. Aside from the cool quirks (an entrance that literally resembles the Batcave, cabinets full of whiskey in the library), the amenities are brand-new, you get a complimentary, always refilled handle of bourbon in the room, and if you do it right, you'll end up with a room facing with the Matterhorn (and we had the only room on our floor to boot. It's Room X, the only one that is solo on its floor). All of our meals were pretty good, although the Omnia's restaurant definitely was the best...not even a contest (and breakfast was included with room booking). The only downside to the hotel? Their mattresses are the firmest ones I have ever slept on...I never got a sound 8 hours of sleep. I did past this feedback along to the front desk, who acknowledged they had received similar feedback and were switching the memory foam / solid rock mattresses to traditional box springs over the course of the next year.

In all? I'd go back to Geneva and Zermatt. I'd probably do another day hike, but probably in Riederalp, closer to the suspension bridge there. I'd skip Montreux - had one of our best meals there (at Le Pont de Brent), but I'm not the kind of person who could do what Charlie Chaplin did...basically hang out and enjoy the gorgeous views and do little else. That said, though, I would almost certainly check out other parts of Switzerland first before revisiting any of these places specifically (although Zermatt would be at the top of that list, but it's also the most geographically isolated).

dulciusexasperis

PsiFighter37, glad to hear you had a good time overall and that you found Bettmeralp a particular winner. Switzerland is full of such small and relatively unknown spots that generally only the repeat visitor gets around to seeing. On your next visit I would suggest visiting Ascona if you can fit it in, for another part of Switzerland that most don't get around to. It's perfect for a few nights of chilling out in between say a couple of places you are active in hiking in etc. This is our hotel choice there. Hotel Tamaro Ascona Switzerland | Official Site | Piazza Ascona Lake Maggiore Think 'riviera' but with mountains as a backdrop.

If you returned to Geneva, you may want to consider taking the Golden Panorama Train from Montreux to Gstaad. The scenery from the train is pretty great and it is quite possible to do a day trip from Geneva and include a hike in the Gstaad area. If you choose to stay in Gstaad, there is a card that gives good value on the cable cars and buses to use when doing multiple hiking days.
https://www.gstaad.ch/en/news/offers...taad-card.html

I'm not a Zermatt fan, considering it too 'touristy kitsch' by far for my taste. I'd rather choose somewhere else to spend time in once you have done the obligatory visit to Zermatt to see the Matterhorn. I feell the same about the Bernese Oberland. It's high on the 'usual suspect' list of places to visit in Switzerland and with due cause but once you have visited, it's time to find the lesser known and at least equally as great places to visit.

It's interesting to read your comment about Montreux having a 'sleepy' feel in your perception. On our last visit to Switzerland my wife and her sister who was with us, both commented to me on how relaxed people seemed to be in Zurich, Switzerland's largest city. It was their first visit to Zurich. I had not really given that any thought on my previous visits to Zurich. When they mentioned it and I looked around, I realized they were right. Walking along the Bahnhoffstrasse and stopping in Cafe Sprungli for lunch at an outdoor table, the pace of the people was nothing like what we usually find in major cities. No one was rushing from place to place, they were strolling from place to place. I attribute that to the overall difference in the culture of the country and it is actually something you can physically see. Interesting to think about. I missed it because although I have visited Switzerland many times, I tend to avoid cities and just pass through them when necessary. But when they mentioned it and I thought back to when I had been in Geneva or Bern or Zurich before, I had never felt the people were rushing as they do in NYC or Toronto or London, etc.

Merlin666

We will be staying in Germay about 1.5 hours from Zürich and will have a 7:40 international departure from ZRH. So we are considering staying at least one night before in Zürich and taking an early train. So my questions are:
1) What are the main sights in Zürich and would it be worthwhile to stay more than one night?
2) Can anyone recommend a lower priced hotel near the Station, or are there some Airbnbs or other options?