Is this a reasonable refund?
 

I booked my parents as follows:

GLA-DXB-AKL
PER-DXB-GLA

This was in first class. The airfare was £6k per person.

EK then advised that the GLA-DXB outbound portion would be in Business Class as the aircraft allocated to the route has changed and didn't have First Class, and that a refund would be calculated.

They have calculated a refund of £329, which I find derisory.

I know that airfares are a minefield but is it worth challenging this? There's no way that is the difference between J and F.

I may well be wrong but what has likely happened is that the F fare was a saver and being put into J class, EK have changed to. J flex plus where usually there isn't much difference in fare. Can you not phone up to get them on a service with F for that section and still be able to connect in DXB to AKL?They are usually accommodating in that respect.

S

I got £50 for phukhet to Dxb so £329 is generous.

They are well shady on this and quite frankly outrageous- best to move to a flight where there is F if possible or cancel and book an alternative carrier.

Surely you must have made that up in Dom consumption by now? :D:D

S

It does seem very low, however I had made this point in another thread previously and will make it here again:

You booked GLA-DXB-AKL-DXB-GLA with a total distance travelled of approx 25,000nm (24,914nm according to gcmap.com).

You have been downgraded on the GLA-DXB segment, which constitutes 3,633nm, thus 14.6% of your overall trip.

Even if they gave you this segment for completely free, you'd be entitled to 14.6% of your fare as a refund, which is 875GBP. You are, though, still travelling in J, so you could consider that your cost for that sector is approx. 550GBP.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the departure tax in the UK does not change between J and F, the refund would be due to change in base fare and carrier-imposed surcharges.

If you look at the above numbers, you're paying about 63% of the F price for J, (i.e. you're being refunded 38% of your fare paid for that portion of the journey (329GBP/875GBP, 875GBP being 14% of 6k GBP, 14% being the pro-rata distance of GLA-DXB within your overall routing).

It's frustrating, because the gut feel is that it should be more, in fact I was about to agree with Saltire74 about the Flex Plus recalc, but looking at these numbers I think EK isn't being totally unreasonable, though certainly not generous.

Said it a few times on FT. Airline ticketing is part of the dark arts. Done a dummy booking for the route above with dates in May/June and maybe because I used multi destination, the prices for outbound in J flex plus (and only showing) F flex showed a difference in just over £650 for the full outbound sectors (GLA-DXB-AKL). So to take into account that taxes are the same for J & F from the UK it may well be that the first sector has been re-fared into J flex plus and there has been some fare difference/ carrier charges refunded.

Some of our FT fare gurus will probably be able to give a more definitive answer.

S

In the circumstances, the best next alternative is probably a re-routing to a destination with a First Class cabin.

I'd much rather suffer a slight inconvenience of flying to/from a different airport than let them get away providing so much less for so little refund.

However, others may have different priorities :)

@ sealink

I had the same case and went in court (in France) against Emirates and I won !

I made a thread (here on FLYERTALK), about the downgrading and unfair refund proposal of Emirates, some days ago.

The whole " story " (including French court decision) is here (in French and English) :

http://emirates.over-blog.com/2017/0...-emirates.html

Good evening and good luck !

Oh wow! Amazing! Thanks

interesting, thank you very much for sharing

It would seem a bit low

Of the GBP6000 Approx GBP967 is taxes and surcharges , which leaves GBP5033.

Assuming that it is a simple r/t ticket the 2 fare components are fairly similar, that would make the journey GBP2516 each way


The distance GLA-DXB is 3633 mi. whilst the whole journey is 12,457, so GLA-DXB is approx 29% of the distance. 29% of GBP2516 is GBP729 . Under EC261, there is an entitlement to 75% refund for that sector which would come to GBP547.23

I would be pushing for GBP547 or require that it provide the pricing breakdown to show how 75% of the GLA-DXB sector value is only GBP329 . if it will not provide the proof, I would take it to MCOL to claim the GBP547

I would also suspect that the AKL fare component is slightly higher than the PER component

IIRC, eu261 only kicks in if the downgrade is within a month. They calculate highest J vs lowest F pro-rated... once they downgraded me, the lowest F was cheaper than the highest J, generously I did not have to pay more :rolleyes:

No it doesn't. There is no time component under EC261

With cancellations, there is no compensation is > 14 days notice is given, but that does not apply to downgrades

I always find it outrageous how cheap arlines try to fob people off when they would never offer an upgrade for such a price.

Thanks for the advice folks. I do think EK is being a bit mean...

Agree - they are taking the piss.

Hello again to sealink and everyone,

As some comments explains the " trick " of EMIRATES is to take in account the fare code of the ticket (most of time discounted one) such as Axxx fare in First (FLEX in 2015) and while downgrading to take the most expensive fare in BUSINESS : Jxxx fare (FULL FLEX in 2015).

As I wrote and show on the Blog I made this is outrageous and EMIRATES was sentenced by a French court in France :

Downgrading and refund (details) :

http://emirates.over-blog.com/2017/0...nd-refund.html

Aircraft swaps (details) :

http://emirates.over-blog.com/2017/0...t-changes.html

Court decision (English translation) :

http://emirates.over-blog.com/2017/0...n-english.html

Airlines explains (which is true) that a airline ticket with several legs is " one " thing (one contract) and, for example, if one did not check-in for first leg it is a " NO SHOW " and the whole airline ticket is cancelled.

But it appears that in order to pay a very low (unfair) refund EMIRATES tries to " changes the rules " and dares to " mix " the fares.

As a retired (old) man and as I explained and shows on the Blog I created (see above), I got (kept) screenshot of prices (FIRST and BUSINESS) of the day of my own booking to prove that Emirates had a shocking refund offer after (shocking) swaps (aircraft changes) and downgrading on two legs of my own trip.

Of course, everyone does not have screenshots of fares of its own day of booking but there is a site where you everyone can find detailed fares (before taxes) for the days of its journey at the date of the (actual) booking ! Everyone can find all fares for each day of booking for the twelve lasts months. This is very interesting to see the actual prices for example in F, A and J, I fares (and other ones). This is EXPERTFLYER where it is easy to have a free trial of 5 days and / or to subscribe for one month (this is what I made to try to understand ticketing fares) at a fee of some 10 $ :

http://www.expertflyer.com/

https://www.expertflyer.com/

Attached, to show how it can be useful, there is a screenshot I made (on EXPERTFLYER website) in 2016 to have a complete view of fares with : ticketing date 2015/10/02, departure 2016/01/24 and return on 2016/02/19 on CDG > CMB on EMIRATES.

I hope this informations will be helpful to everyone here.

Greetings from France.

Actually, EK often offer upgrades from UK-DXB at not much more being offered.

As I said earlier on. You were offered about 38% of what you paid for that leg, pro-rata. I think that's a pretty fair amount given what one often pays for F over J. At least on my typical routes it's usually 30-40% premium for F over J.

except that the mandatory reimbursement is 75% , not 38%

Given a mandatory reimbursement is 75%, I have trouble seeing how 38% is fair

Good evening,

You are (perfectly) right for downgrading on departure legs from Europe (as CEE 261 / 2004 applies to all carriers for outbound flights from Europe).

The official CEE 261 /2004 rule states :

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...4R0261&from=FR

For my own case it was not ruled by CEE 261 / 2004 as downgrading was on return legs.

To know the actual difference of ticket prices (case of this thread and other ones) the best is to use EXPERTFLYER to check the fares (they are without taxes and airport charges and can be used at 100 % for calculation). Fares can be displayed in $, €, £ or any currency used (country where the ticket was bought).

On the screenshot of EXPERTFLYER website that I uploaded (see above in the thread) for example, it appears that at date of booking for a journey at mentioned dates (CDG > DXB > CMB > DXB > CDG) the FLEX fares were : FIRST (AEEESFR1) : 3 673 € and BUSINESS (IEEESFR1) : 1 710 €. Difference is 1 963 €. But difference between FIRST FLEX of 3 673 € and BUSINESS FLEX PLUS (JERZFFR1) of 2 760 € is only of 913 €. In several affairs (downgrading from FIRST to BUSINESS) Emirates tried to pretend that the difference to be taken in account (whole return journey) should be (as in this example) of 913 € and not of 1 963 € ! This is shocking of course (mix of fares FLEX and FLEX PLUS).

This was the way Emirates wanted to refund me (for the actual case and dates of my trip in 2015). The FIRST FLEX was 3 740 € and BUSINESS FLEX was 1 740 €. Difference was 2 000 €. As I was downgraded on 2 legs on 4 (return ones) I asked a refund of 1 000 € (50 % * 2 000 €). But Emirates Emirates wanted to use the FLEX PLUS fare in BUSINESS (it was of 2 740 €) and pretended that the difference due was (3 740 € - 2 740 €) = 1 000 € and for 50 % of legs = 500 € (only) ....

The French court (2016 December 16) rejected the Emirates " point of view " and sentenced Emirates to make the full refund I asked (1 000 €). I explained and detailed everything I could in the Blog I made (see above in this thread).

So to check Emirates refund proposal it is necessary to have the actual prices of the involved trip in the same fares (FLEX, FLEX PLUS) and for this a tool as EXPERTFLYER is very useful for the passenger (there are other tools of course which are similar on the web).

Greetings from France.

Who says mandatory = fair?

Yeah they do that as a cabin filler, but they offer that when they want, not when you want.
If you take something away from someone, you should compensate him for the going rate, not for what it could be had at some clearance sale.

I have difficulty seeing how offering anything lower than that which is legally required to be paid can ever be fair

so if it were the reciprocal DXB-GLA then 300 would be perfectly fair since there's not more legally required?

The airline might say 75% if unfair to them and their operational need to shuffle aircraft.

The airline is choosing for economic reasons to change aeroplane use and the reimbursement requirements need to be considered

What might be reasonable on a different flight is irrelevent - for travel commencing in EU, the required amount is stipulated by regulation

required != fair

You get a product that costs approx. 30-40% less and you get a refund in that range. Seems fair to me

The idea of the EU legislation is to stop airlines doing this routinely. If somebody walks up at GLA and pays full whack for an F fare, EK should be penalised for then downgrading an F passenger that had only paid a discounted F fare.

Isn't the EU regulation applicable here? You are involuntary downgraded, so they should compensate you with 75% (?) of the original flight price...

Yes and already mentioned. It's 75% of the pro-rated portion (by distance) of the trip, so as was calculated above in the region of 500-600 GBP.

and what about a goodwill guesture - what about the dissapointment? Its awful customer service - but they don't really seem to bothered about downgrades.

I'd be very annoyed - I've stopped paying for F where there is the possibility of a swap or I'm not flexible enough to be able to move.

Only if he turned up on the day and was downgraded - then it's a fight with EK to get it as EK like to litigate.

A fight of the heavyweights here folks...

Just out of curiosity, I had a look at the EK Source route tracker. From 01/01/17, there have been 25 swaps from three class to two class aircraft in tha past 192 flights (not including today). Does that seem higher than you would normally expect on a route that's advertised as a three class route?

S

I think we agree - it doesn't matter if the airline tells you in advance if there has been an equipment swap. If you turn up on the day of your flight and you have to sit in a cabin lower than the one purchase involuntarily, compensation is due.

This is unlike if you are denied boarding due to cancellation, in which case there is a reasonable notice period for an airline to tell you in advance: 14 days at least.

If EK want to avoid a compensation claim then they should refund the entire ticket - I agree the absolute minimum should be the legal entitlement of 75%, whether that's on a per sector or trip basis (whenever that gets resolved at the ECJ)

Not true. There is no time component to when a downgrade occurs as to when EC261 mandated reimbursement becomes due

EK may try to avoid paying and need to be taken to something like MCOL (in England) but there is no such get out in the regulation

The airline could just rebook onto another flight and pay the delayed / cancellation compensation - which would be zero if done > 2 weeks before departure, but if it simply downgrades the passenger, it is liable to pay the 75%

If he is notified he will be downgraded then that means there is a good chance that, on the day, he will not be travelling in F.

If he did turn up, despite having been told there was an equipment swap, but there was another equipment swap back to 3 class and he travelled in the initial booking class, the compensation would not be due - the test is whether he travels in the booked class or not, on the flight booked. If he does, then there is no compensation due. If he doesn't, then if it was involuntary, then compensation is due.

As you say, there is no time component that means compensation is not payable even if he travels in the lower class.

And just doing some quick maths, that was the potential of 400 pee'd off F class passengers :eek:

S

Absolutely - the test is whether , on the day of travel, the passenger travels in the class booked by the passenger - or in a lower class

My point is that the claim made by some , that if the airline notifies of the downgrade in advance that there is no compensation due, is completely false

Compensation would only become paid once travel occurs in the lower cabin

If the passenger decides for other reasons to change date of travel , contacts reservations to rebook and voluntarily books in a lower class - again no compensation