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-   -   New 777 J seat announced (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-skywards/1750583-new-777-j-seat-announced.html)

Enhancements Mar 10, 16 10:46 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26313077)
EY have a great J product on a fraction of their route. If you want to talk about A380 dependance. The rest of their route is pretty terrible and the ground handling is downright horrendous. AUH transit vs DXB, I'll pick DXB anytime. the bus gate issue is overblown as well, don't get them that often, especially now with concourse D open there should be even fewer. While in AUH half the flights are still from the 1950s looking T1

AUH is terrible until T2 comes online, yes, but EY's widebody business class (the majority of their capacity) is on par with EK's A380; a few less bells and whistles, but rather solid, especially post-refurbishment.


That's not a knock on the new EK 777 product though: it does seem to do a lot with the space it's been allocated, and I still think there is a plus point for the upmarket leisure traveller/couple/family to fly in these vs a fully segregated seat.

DYKWIA Mar 10, 16 11:43 am


Originally Posted by PremiumTraveller (Post 26312798)
Well you do make a point on EK's chain of thought, but people do change when competition offers a better overall experience. I speak for myself, I've found flying EY or QR much better in terms of service and hard product and I've found few of my fellow EK PLAT members echoing the same thing!

I agree, but is there another carrier that can match EK for both network and price?

Given the choice and a comparable price, I'd go with the following :-

1. EK A380
2. EK 777 for direct routes (anywhere to DXB)
3. EK (any aircraft) on routes not served by other carriers
4. QR/EY on routes served by QR/EY and a EK 777

So, I'd go with QR/EY over a EK 777 if it involved a non-direct route. And only if I didn't fancy a few days stopover in DXB :D

For me, the EK 777 is perfectly acceptable.

Cheers

kq747 Mar 10, 16 1:22 pm

While I consider direct aisle access to be a great perk and the EK business product is definitely lagging in this respect, I would still choose them over ANY US airline and most others, based on soft product, lounges, IFE, and connections. I always select a window seat as my preference and I dont often get up on flights so this is not a deal breaker for me. What I do appreciate is good food choices, better wine lists, MUCH better FAs that treat like you well and I personally love the fact that FAs are so diverse. IFE is also a big deal to me. I do wish they had gone with the Apex suite as it just seems awesome especially at the window. Tim Clark definitely needs to re-think his statements as an "industry leading product" especially if hes referring to the seat it self.

However, I fly to NBO a lot and they are the only ME airline to offer a proper J seat on a widebody jet and they even send their newest 777s on a 5 hour non-prestige route! In J, it is definitely better, than QR or EY which have regional configs (except QR on select aircraft). My point is, direct aisle access is not the average but rather the aspiration, even in 2016. It is still sad that an airline like EK would introduce this a new J class though. The remaining options for proper non-regional J are not particularly wonderful (BA, KQ, KL, LH, LX, CZ), Swiss being the only direct aisle access airline in J.

Even in Y, which IMO people grossly overstate is so terrible because of the 3-4-3, has never felt cramped on ULR including DXB-IAH (I am 5′ 10″ and 165lbs).

ioto1902 Mar 10, 16 2:00 pm


Originally Posted by eternaltransit (Post 26312138)
.... Additionally, in situations where most people have little experience - so in this case, unless you're flying weekly in J/F long haul, that's what we mean - they reach out to any kind of comparable experience to provide a base-line: given the base-line comparisons are now going to be based on 1-2-1, 2-2-2, which is superficial sure, but we're talking about impressions, then that will pre-dispose many more negatively from the start - which I think is an avoidable mistake on EK's part.

Right.
Even within EK, you can feel the difference when flying B777 right after A388, and it indeed does matter when flying 2 or 3 trips per month.

NoY Mar 10, 16 10:15 pm


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26311828)
I think Emirates is pretty clear in their positioning and what they would say is if you don't want to climb over/be climbed over then buy a first class ticket.

Genius solution :D:D:D

subject2load Mar 10, 16 11:13 pm


Originally Posted by NoY (Post 26316301)
Genius solution :D:D:D

Ha ha ! Genius solution indeed.

There must be EK managers who took their MBA degree specially to develop such clever 'positioning' ideas.

Of course, there is also an alternative - equally genius - solution for those who want guaranteed direct aisle access on a 777.

And it just happens to be a lot cheaper than booking F with EK : simply buy a ticket with any of the 777 operators who offer 1-2-1 config in J class :cool:

kuroko Mar 10, 16 11:31 pm

I agree with all comments here (JL 2-3-2 would be the best solution, not sure if you just can copy that or if there is something like a patent), but IMO the people who will switch because the 777 has still a 2-3-2 are 0.000001% (they havent switched before, so..).

at least the new seat looks better. any idea if the minibar is fridgerated? looks like.

big change will come with the 777X so not really a bad move from EK in my opinion.

ashkale Mar 10, 16 11:51 pm

Does EK J mean the customer is a "joker"
 
After several years took a J ek flight as a mh codeshare..7 abreast on 777 omg..is this a bad joke?

NoY Mar 11, 16 12:35 am


Originally Posted by subject2load (Post 26316457)
Ha ha ! Genius solution indeed.

There must be EK managers who took their MBA degree specially to develop such clever 'positioning' ideas.

Of course, there is also an alternative - equally genius - solution for those who want guaranteed direct aisle access on a 777.

And it just happens to be a lot cheaper than booking F with EK : simply buy a ticket with any of the 777 operators who offer 1-2-1 config in J class :cool:

Absolutely & without paying for F & getting J food per EK F. LOL ^

skywardhunter Mar 11, 16 12:53 am

This has been extensively covered in other threads this past week. Perhaps mods should start merging these?

m3red Mar 11, 16 1:14 am


Originally Posted by ashkale (Post 26316536)
After several years took a J ek flight as a mh codeshare..7 abreast on 777 omg..is this a bad joke?

:rolleyes:

Like ba club world etc etc...

Fly 380 if you want direct access or ahem pick an aisle seat.

Dave Noble Mar 11, 16 1:16 am


Originally Posted by m3red (Post 26316707)
:rolleyes:

Like ba club world etc etc...

Fly 380 if you want direct access or ahem pick an aisle seat.

Oh no - not 3 across on a BA 777, but 4 across in the centre ( 2-4-2 configuration )

m3red Mar 11, 16 1:21 am


Originally Posted by Dave Noble (Post 26316712)
Oh no - not 3 across on a BA 777, but 4 across in the centre ( 2-4-2 configuration )

And if you sit in a rear facing middle seat you get to look lovingly at a stranger all flight or have that annoying divider go up and down :D

Give me a b or j and k with the wife over club world but that's another topic ;)

ZBigFam Mar 11, 16 10:12 am


Originally Posted by m3red (Post 26316727)
Give me a b or j ;)

lol could go places with that remark...sorry couldn't resist

eternaltransit Mar 11, 16 10:14 am


Originally Posted by ZBigFam (Post 26318171)
lol could go places with that remark...sorry couldn't resist

Just imagine that over a BA CW divider...could be awkward...but the seat config is facing each other...

ZBigFam Mar 11, 16 10:54 am

Declining seat standards in business class?
 
Not sure if anyone else noticed the same? On my flight from ORD to DXB my business class seat was damaged, the panel on the inside had ripped of to reveal gobs of rubber cement or similar adhesive. Additionally my seat belt latch had been damaged to the point that they had to call maintenance to fix it.

Now on my connection to Singapore I notice that the cradle for the tablet thing is cracked and jagged.

Seems like they should be paying closer attention....

UA1K_no_more Mar 11, 16 11:28 am


Originally Posted by Dave Noble (Post 26316712)
Oh no - not 3 across on a BA 777, but 4 across in the centre ( 2-4-2 configuration )

UA also has 2-4-2 in C class on some (most?) 777s. If 7 across is a "bad joke", what is 8 across?
TK also has 7 across, BTW.

subject2load Mar 11, 16 11:34 am

It's a very fair comment as regards paying closer attention.

Emirates, as you will know, now boasts one of the largest fleets amongst global carriers - which is quite something considering it has only operated since 1985. Overall, it is also one of the (maybe THE ....?) very youngest fleets, such that its aircraft are mostly in good condition.

In terms of 'fixtures & fittings', my general impression of EK over the years I have flown them remains very positive. That said, on some recent sectors I have certainly noticed signs of wear & tear. There are a LOT of aircraft to maintain !!

I can remember one flight where my F suite was looking distinctly tired (dare I say even a tad scruffy in parts) and the only thing that stopped me reporting it formally was the fact that I had been upgraded at check-in by the station duty manager (whether I should have still reported it, notwithstanding the upgrade, is a moot point ..... each to his own and all that !)

subject2load Mar 11, 16 12:00 pm

As a mostly solo traveller I now actively avoid any 777's that don't offer the more 'advanced' configs in J class. Admittedly it may not be possible to do so ALL the time. But most of the time ....?? Yes.

On my previous two trips down to Aus & NZ, I travelled F with EK, so obviously had no issues with middle seats or direct aisle access etc. I like EK.

However for this current trip I decided to save cash by booking J and chose to go CX whose 777 provides a welcome 1-2-1 in J ; and that was also the case with the codeshare sector from HKG, operated by Air NZ, down to AKL.

Had my first taste of the 787 last month with QR - and again, there was the comfort/spacious feel of 1-2-1 (and high quality catering) - but at significantly less cost than F class.

DYKWIA Mar 11, 16 12:09 pm


Originally Posted by eternaltransit (Post 26318185)
Just imagine that over a BA CW divider...could be awkward...but the seat config is facing each other...

I almost choked on that!

Fnarrr, fnarr!

pomkiwi Mar 11, 16 12:45 pm


Originally Posted by subject2load (Post 26318607)
I can remember one flight where my F suite was looking distinctly tired (dare I say even a tad scruffy in parts) and the only thing that stopped me reporting it formally was the fact that I had been upgraded at check-in by the station duty manager (whether I should have still reported it, notwithstanding the upgrade, is a moot point ..... each to his own and all that !)

I would have been inclined to report it - not out of a wish to gain any compensation (I realise that will immediately antagonise a sizable minority on FT :D ) but rather to increase the chance that something would be done about it before the next (or at least next but one) person had to use it.

RichL Mar 11, 16 1:16 pm

Flew back to BHX a couple of months ago, you know the twisty light in business? Well the end just fell off one time when I got on. The flight was delayed for about an hour while an 'engineer' was found. He came on board finally and you know what he did?

Go on, you can guess...

Picked then end of the light bulb off the floor, shoved it on the end and went.

The flight was then closed.

After take off, I went to use my light. Guess what happened? The whole thing fell off again.

ukdoctor Mar 11, 16 4:48 pm

Same experience with my J seat ex DXB. Was not reclining prior to takeoff and they got an 'engineer ' in to fix it. I had boarded a bit early as I wanted to have a quick snooze before being upright for takeoff

I Hope I didn't delay the flight by 30 min as it still wouldn't recline after takeoff and they had to manually recline it anyway.

rgdave Mar 11, 16 5:23 pm


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26311554)
... Most pax don't make travel decisions based on the configuration of the business cabin.

Not so. In biz, cabin configuration is my #1 decision factor. From NY, where I fly long haul I generally make one connection somewhere, so usually have quite bit of airline choice. These days, airlines with 2-3-2 (apart from JAL's direct aisle access Skysuites) aren't even in the hunt group. For example, I fly EK JFK-MXP on the A380 with 1-2-1, but if they switched the route to a 777 with 2-3-2, I'd flip to Alitalia, with 1-2-1 in a heartbeat. With 2-3-2, even with an aisle seat, you have somebody climbing over you in the middle of the night to go to the lav.

skywardhunter Mar 11, 16 7:47 pm


Originally Posted by rgdave (Post 26320048)
Not so. In biz, cabin configuration is my #1 decision factor. From NY, where I fly long haul I generally make one connection somewhere, so usually have quite bit of airline choice. These days, airlines with 2-3-2 (apart from JAL's direct aisle access Skysuites) aren't even in the hunt group. For example, I fly EK JFK-MXP on the A380 with 1-2-1, but if they switched the route to a 777 with 2-3-2, I'd flip to Alitalia, with 1-2-1 in a heartbeat. With 2-3-2, even with an aisle seat, you have somebody climbing over you in the middle of the night to go to the lav.

1. "most"

2. NYC has a slightly above average choice of carriers and destinations compared to a lot of the places EK flies. Places where schedule and soft product trump hard product on decision making (well the often only alternative is a local carrier with questionable planes/service)

subject2load Mar 12, 16 4:07 am

Must say, skywardhunter, your staunch defence of Emirates throughout this thread has been admirable !! It's pretty clear you are perfectly happy with what - by current & ongoing standards - will be an increasingly outdated config when their new 777 seat comes into being.

However, whilst you are of course perfectly entitled to your own opinion (of which I have no criticism), you must, equally, accept that however hard you try to convince others that the new layout is 'a good thing', there are self-evidently many who disagree. And, in some cases, they will disagree strongly. Several of those alternative views have been voiced here (and there will undoubtedly be many more who do not frequent internet blogs or forums etc.)

As some posters have indicated, it is unrealistic to imply that frequent flyers (and very often, infrequent too) do not look carefully at configs and individual seats when choosing a carrier. Sites such as seatguru and seatplan etc developed to cater to those very demands for information & detailed knowledge.

I myself am an Emirates fan and have travelled with them (albeit with various gaps over the years) since 1986. But I do believe in looking at what is out there, and competition is always healthy. I am halfway through a trip to Australia & NZ, with several countries visited en route. I wanted to be sure of a solo seat on all the lengthy sectors : personal space, with no risk of having to climb - or being climbed - over. I was happily able to enjoy this on CX, NZ, and QR (the latter not a 777 but a 787). The fare, in J throughout, was less than the EK equivalent, and service was just as good ; in fact NZ I would say was better.

I can't imagine what would now encourage me to go for a 2-3-2 aircraft when 1-2-1 is so widely available on quality carriers.

As an aside, I will be flying Melbourne to Perth with QF at the end of the month. It's a four hour sector approx and QF are using A330's with a 1-2-1 config in J, with 28 seats. Ironically, I used Skywards miles to get award seats. And when QF can offer 1-2-1 even a four hour domestic, it really does make it that much harder to be satisfied with EK's 777 for much longer sectors.

skywardhunter Mar 12, 16 4:36 am


Originally Posted by subject2load (Post 26321530)
Must say, skywardhunter, your staunch defence of Emirates throughout this thread has been admirable !! It's pretty clear you are perfectly happy with what - by current & ongoing standards - will be an increasingly outdated config when their new 777 seat comes into being.

However, whilst you are of course perfectly entitled to your own opinion (of which I have no criticism), you must, equally, accept that however hard you try to convince others that the new layout is 'a good thing', there are self-evidently many who disagree. And, in some cases, they will disagree strongly. Several of those alternative views have been voiced here (and there will undoubtedly be many more who do not frequent internet blogs or forums etc.)

As some posters have indicated, it is unrealistic to imply that frequent flyers (and very often, infrequent too) do not look carefully at configs and individual seats when choosing a carrier. Sites such as seatguru and seatplan etc developed to cater to those very demands for information & detailed knowledge.

I myself am an Emirates fan and have travelled with them (albeit with various gaps over the years) since 1986. But I do believe in looking at what is out there, and competition is always healthy. I am halfway through a trip to Australia & NZ, with several countries visited en route. I wanted to be sure of a solo seat on all the lengthy sectors : personal space, with no risk of having to climb - or being climbed - over. I was happily able to enjoy this on CX, NZ, and QR (the latter not a 777 but a 787). The fare, in J throughout, was less than the EK equivalent, and service was just as good ; in fact NZ I would say was better.

I can't imagine what would now encourage me to go for a 2-3-2 aircraft when 1-2-1 is so widely available on quality carriers.

As an aside, I will be flying Melbourne to Perth with QF at the end of the month. It's a four hour sector approx and QF are using A330's with a 1-2-1 config in J, with 28 seats. Ironically, I used Skywards miles to get award seats. And when QF can offer 1-2-1 even a four hour domestic, it really does make it that much harder to be satisfied with EK's 777 for much longer sectors.

1. I didn't imply frequent flyers don't look at configs. I said most people, and I stand by that statement. We are a very small subset of airline passengers with very specific knowledge of the products available.

2. I choose EK for schedule primarily. I used to fly primarily SAA and loved them, and it was hard saying goodbye but these days for me EK is better. That doesn't mean I choose EK over other carriers at all costs. In fact I am flying EY J tomorrow night instead of EK, because it was significantly cheaper (but the schedule and routing is so bad I in fact would prefer EK Y after having flown the outbound last month).

3. I didn't say it is a "good thing", and in fact stated earlier in the thread that given the implementation timeline and lack of retrofit the new seat will already be outdated. However I admire well-run businesses, being an entrepreneur myself and my travel being paid for by my company. I think Emirates is extremely well-run and I admire it. Emirates offers me good flight options with good consistent service and transit and an overall pleasant experience. I'd hate for that to go away, thus am interested in the company being successful. I also understand the need for product differentiation and I still think that this is the right move by EK. Just because all other carriers are going for lower density luxury options in J (the direct aisle JL config notwithstanding, though arguably even that is lower density, given the need to remove some Y rows to fit it in), doesn't mean it's the right thing to do product-wise. A lot of other carriers don't offer F or only offer it on some routes, whereas EK is a more or less full three-class carrier. They're marketing business class to business people, and they carry a lot of them, business is for a upper-class comfortable travel experience for executives, first class is for luxury. That's how EK is positioned and I think it makes sense for their business model.

4. The need to step over someone's legs or be stepped over is completely blown out of proportion by FlyerTalkers, it's a disturbance, but it doesn't define the entire aviation experience, and given all the rest of the EK J and overall experience I still find it to be more consistent than most other carriers. I can trust EK to get things done in a professional manner, with no unexpected f*** ups along the way. That's professional courtesy to their customers and most airlines lack it.

I don't see a need to "conform" to the majority view. On FT when a poster makes some good points or there's a general sentiment towards a product/service/carrier people tend to jump on the bandwagon, despite there sometimes being legitimate counter-balancing viewpoints.

I've surely had some bad EK experience, too. And in fact being a lowly Y traveller most of the time when I get op-upped I get the dreaded E seat on the 777 (and I only fly 777 as no 380 on my routes). I still manage to enjoy it. Having flown J on SAA several times and now on EY, and having flown in an F suite on the EK A380, I am overall quite happy with the EK J product, yes. I take more offense at airlines like EY that sell you EY J then put you in 9W J, or airlines like AI or SG that sell you at 5pm flight then move it to 11am and tell you the day before. Those things hardly happen on EK IME.

subject2load Mar 12, 16 8:41 am

Well, as already mentioned, it's become a pretty simple decision for me :
If I can get the route/timing I want, with a J class config of 1-2-1, on a carrier that I know will provide good service + competitive prices (not too difficult the way the biz class market is these days), then I have virtually zero inclination to go 2-3-2.

I will happily continue to fly EK on their 777's in F (where I feel the trip warrants F), and also the 380 in either F or J (although not overly-keen on the 76 capacity cabin when full)

That said, if you can guarantee me Scarlett Johansson as my neighbour on an EK 777 in J, then I'll have no issues at all with their more crowded 2-3-2. Sadly it ain't never gonna happen ...... she'll be tucked away in her F suite ...... :cool:
Or else on NetJets ........

ioto1902 Mar 12, 16 10:42 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26321588)

I also think that EK is a very well run company, hiring very competent expat managers.
Nevertheless, I'm not a shareholder, I'm a client. Therefore, I will see my own egocentric benefit first, and 1-2-1 is definitively better than 2-3-2.

I have the chance to fly B777 J almost exclusively on short haul, and actually, the angled flat seat is very convenient as I can climb over my aisle neighbor more easily.
Now, with this mini-bar and stool, I'm less enthusiastic, all the more that bulkhead seats seem to have less space.

We, FTers, may not be representative of the average flyer, but, businessmen flying J will check ahead their working conditions : chauffeur, lounge, wifi, privacy, power outlet, flat bed, etc. 2-3-2 is a no-no to work onboard.

skywardhunter Mar 12, 16 12:07 pm


Originally Posted by ioto1902 (Post 26322524)
I also think that EK is a very well run company, hiring very competent expat managers.
Nevertheless, I'm not a shareholder, I'm a client. Therefore, I will see my own egocentric benefit first, and 1-2-1 is definitively better than 2-3-2.

I have the chance to fly B777 J almost exclusively on short haul, and actually, the angled flat seat is very convenient as I can climb over my aisle neighbor more easily.
Now, with this mini-bar and stool, I'm less enthusiastic, all the more that bulkhead seats seem to have less space.

We, FTers, may not be representative of the average flyer, but, businessmen flying J will check ahead their working conditions : chauffeur, lounge, wifi, privacy, power outlet, flat bed, etc. 2-3-2 is a no-no to work onboard.

Agreed that 1-2-1 beats 2-3-2, and that the new seats look harder to get into and out of. however don't understand how 2-3-2 prevents working on board, are you carrying a desktop computer with you or need to routinely pace up and down the aisle while contemplating the stresses of your job?

eternaltransit Mar 12, 16 12:13 pm


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26322810)
Agreed that 1-2-1 beats 2-3-2, and that the new seats look harder to get into and out of. however don't understand how 2-3-2 prevents working on board, are you carrying a desktop computer with you or need to routinely pace up and down the aisle while contemplating the stresses of your job?

I can easily look over and see what my seat neighbour is looking at on his computer (without even trying to eavesdrop or spy I have seen some interesting things flicker across a screen, especially to/from cities with conferences going on) - this would of course be generally unacceptable for anything even remotely commercially (or even politically) sensitive.

ioto1902 Mar 12, 16 12:41 pm


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26322810)
Agreed that 1-2-1 beats 2-3-2, and that the new seats look harder to get into and out of. however don't understand how 2-3-2 prevents working on board, are you carrying a desktop computer with you or need to routinely pace up and down the aisle while contemplating the stresses of your job?

hahaha

Because of confidentiality.

I once enjoyed a whole AF flight CDG-PEK (previous J cabin) with two direct competitors sitting in A/B, working on a PowerPoint presentation for their local joint-venture partner. I was sitting in E (aisle in center) one row behind. It was a little bit far, but I understood the main points of their 3-year strategy ...

This is one reason I never work on EK B777 J, and always choose window on EK A380 J.

And, indeed, I enjoy looking outside during take-offs and landings, but also need to move my legs regularly and chat with FAs telling them how happy I am to fly EK as much as they enjoy working for EK :D:D:D

Wtravel Mar 30, 16 2:40 pm

"New" 777 Business Class seats
 
At the recent ITB Tim Clark was quoted as follows with regard to the new business class seats (still 7 across) EK plans to introduce on all new 777 deliveries (so no retrofitting):

Sir Tim Clark, Emirates president said: 'Our current Boeing 777 business class seats are already an industry-leading premium product, and what this new seat does is to take that design and comfort to the next level.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3484016/Emirates-new-business-class-seat-offer-passengers-legroom-private-minibar-23in-television-screen.html#ixzz44PsDn0VE

Makes me wonder if EK's marketing department has lost even the last touch of reality, or maybe I just never appreciated how "industry-leading premium" the current product already is ;-)

kuroko Mar 31, 16 1:31 pm

maybe just me but saw the pictures again today: current 777, you can quite easy pass the B/J seat (or D/F) but now it looks like you have no space at all between wall and seat

avcritic Mar 31, 16 3:03 pm

Well, on A380, 65 E/F and 78 E/F no longer need to feel bad. So far they are the only ones living in a fishbowl eagerly waiting for any left food choices with teared eyes. They will have company in J.

m3red Mar 31, 16 11:00 pm


Originally Posted by eternaltransit (Post 26322822)
I can easily look over and see what my seat neighbour is looking at on his computer (without even trying to eavesdrop or spy I have seen some interesting things flicker across a screen, especially to/from cities with conferences going on) - this would of course be generally unacceptable for anything even remotely commercially (or even politically) sensitive.

That's what screen filters are for

CelloYellow Apr 2, 16 3:59 am

The layout is quite disappointing. BLR-DXB-SEA is my most common route and since I hear both flights will continue to be 777s I was hoping for direct aisle access.

That said, I do find the A380 J seat a little narrow when trying to sleep.

eternaltransit Apr 2, 16 6:40 am


Originally Posted by m3red (Post 26418672)
That's what screen filters are for

Indeed, but it's shocking the number of people who don't use them! Even then you can just about get a good angle if you are directly behind them in the aisle - but that would be an issue on other airlines as well. Just means you have to argue with the boss for F suites! :D


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