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-   -   New 777 J seat announced (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-skywards/1750583-new-777-j-seat-announced.html)

eternaltransit Mar 9, 16 10:02 am

The issue that grates is not the 2-3-2 instead of 1-2-1 situation - I know it's unrealistic for EK to fly 1-2-1 given the drop in revenue that would result - but the fact that the 2-3-2 configuration they have gone for is still the same as the old one, and further, that 2-3-2 can work very well with direct aisle access for all passengers with minimal space changes (perhaps you'd remove two rows of economy to fit it all in, or have one row of reduced length J seats) but EK seem to either lack the imagination or don't care enough to do it, preferring instead to pad out the seats more, make the screen a bit shinier and have a compartment for drinks which probably isn't even refrigerated.

It's not as if they would even have issues retrofitting - the product is likely only going on new deliveries. Perhaps they'll find some imagination for when the 77X is deployed...

subject2load Mar 9, 16 10:14 am

Some fair points from both DYKWIA and WouldLovetoFlyFirst.

In terms of network coverage/scheduling : agreed EK score well, in fact very well.
BUT ... by combining different carriers (not always ideal wrt FFP status/mileage accumulation, admittedly) it's possible to find better J class configs to most major destinations.

On the matter of differentiation between J and F : yes, this is certainly a possible factor. However, I'm of the view that the real battleground these days is not the matter of differentiation between the premium cabins of an individual carrier, but the overall quality of the J product across competing carriers.

And ultimately that's why I believe EK - with all their knowledge & experience - have missed a trick with this revamp.

EDIT : yes, eternaltransit, I too am more hopeful for the 777X, where (I would like to think) EK will surely want to raise their game.

Prospero Mar 9, 16 4:33 pm

The Design Air has published a full set of photos...

http://thedesignair.net/2016/03/09/e...uld-be-better/

subject2load Mar 9, 16 5:04 pm

Thanks for posting Prospero ^

In short :

Contemporary-looking seat ; Outdated config.

After such a long wait, I sense the disappointment is widespread.

HB7 Mar 9, 16 5:50 pm

New 777 J seat to be announced soon
 
Definitely disappointing from EK.

ckx2 Mar 9, 16 9:49 pm

What a joke.

Dieuwer Mar 9, 16 10:04 pm

Why not 2-2-2?

NoY Mar 9, 16 11:08 pm

Pathetic. 2-3-2 for a 2016 Business Class seat launch, with NO direct aisle access except for those seated in the aisle? Laugh? I nearly did :td:

BUT, it (almost unbelievably) makes sense from an EK business-model perspective in many many ways (as covered extensively up-thread). Sadly.

I shall abandon plans to build EK status/miles & stick with EY where I get direct able access in J on all long haul aircraft. They also happen to fly everywhere I want to go ^

skywardhunter Mar 9, 16 11:38 pm


Originally Posted by NoY (Post 26310953)
Pathetic. 2-3-2 for a 2016 Business Class seat launch, with NO direct aisle access except for those seated in the aisle? Laugh? I nearly did :td:

BUT, it (almost unbelievably) makes sense from an EK business-model perspective in many many ways (as covered extensively up-thread). Sadly.

I shall abandon plans to build EK status/miles & stick with EY where I get direct able access in J on all long haul aircraft. They also happen to fly everywhere I want to go ^

Or just don't choose the middle seat...?

subject2load Mar 10, 16 12:02 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26311044)
Or just don't choose the middle seat...?


Okay ... so.....what's the strategy if you find yourself having to book a flight at short notice (as many business travellers inevitably do), and all seats except the middle ones - surprise, surprise - have already been selected .....:confused:


And even if you're not the poor sod in the middle, there's surely going to be some leaning across by FA's when serving whoever is....?

It's just wrong.

Antdenatale Mar 10, 16 12:13 am

To say the new seat is a big disappointment would be a vast understatement. What happened to the Innovation that Emirates was famous for a few years back. This seat is simple evolution not revolution.

To sick with 2-3-2 in this day and age in Business Class is madness, as mentioned above a lot of flights are booked near to departure date and I would rather book with EY or QR on a route that is operated by EK 777 than take the risk of being in the middle seat.

travelislife Mar 10, 16 12:51 am

I reckon they are hamstrung by the number of aircraft they have. So they had to stick with 2-3-2 because they aren't retrofitting. It would have made route planning pretty bloody hard with the number of 777's they have if they had changed config.

In saying that, why they didn't go down the JL path of direct aisle access for all in a 2-3-2 config does seem crazy.

ft101 Mar 10, 16 1:18 am


Originally Posted by eternaltransit (Post 26307384)
. . . .and have a compartment for drinks which probably isn't even refrigerated.

It is this time. :)

m3red Mar 10, 16 1:26 am


Originally Posted by travelislife (Post 26311215)
I reckon they are hamstrung by the number of aircraft they have. So they had to stick with 2-3-2 because they aren't retrofitting. It would have made route planning pretty bloody hard with the number of 777's they have if they had changed config.

In saying that, why they didn't go down the JL path of direct aisle access for all in a 2-3-2 config does seem crazy.

The most sensible post yet. There has to be something in this - 2 3 2 as per JAL would surely mean either less j or less y seats and given most flights go full in y and j it seems to be an economic call. I guess that the change may come on newer episodes aircraft that will do certain routes where the maths work.

This will certainly keep me paying for first...maybe there's something in that too...keeping the product differentiation.

EK is certainly not Market leading when it comes to it's hard product any more save for the ice (still the nets out there) and the best shower spa and bar area.

PremiumTraveller Mar 10, 16 1:40 am

Emirates needs to stop dreaming face reality. If they continue to dissapoint and think people will continue to fly EK in the long run because it's Emirates - we may see history repeat.

The seat makes it even more isolating for couples to fly together. Business Class is supposed to have more room and space, not barriers and limitations to facilitate unnecessary junk.

skywardhunter Mar 10, 16 3:12 am

I definitely think EK is simply differentiating their product. In the end it is business class. Does it really need all the luxuries first has to offer? I think a lot of other carriers are getting carried away with business and many don't have first cabins so there's no higher bar.

It's a suitable and significant step up from Y, while leaving room for improvement towards F. Does it compete with other business products? No. Maybe EK is trying to arrest the "arms race" of airline hard products and in the end I doubt there's a real danger of people stopping flying with EK because of this. Most pax don't make travel decisions based on the configuration of the business cabin.

ioto1902 Mar 10, 16 3:13 am

JL accepted to reduce seat number with their new layout (same for JL Y with more pitch, particularly on B787).
EK had this possibility but decided to favor maximum load over comfort, which is not very surprising from a carrier that is studying 11-abreast on A380 Y.

EK B777 new J is already behind competition. How will it be in 8 years ? (EK introduced the current J in 2008 IIRC)

For a final positive touch, the new seat texture seems nice, if it is really soft white leather.


FYI, JL has F which is really really nice, both on hard and soft.

DYKWIA Mar 10, 16 3:32 am


Originally Posted by PremiumTraveller (Post 26311318)
Emirates needs to stop dreaming face reality. If they continue to dissapoint and think people will continue to fly EK in the long run because it's Emirates - we may see history repeat.

The seat makes it even more isolating for couples to fly together. Business Class is supposed to have more room and space, not barriers and limitations to facilitate unnecessary junk.

No *people* need to wake up... You want cheaper J fares? Then you'll need to put up with a flat bed, nice food & champagne and great entertainment in a 2x3x2 layout.

OK, you can move on to use other carriers if you want. But why hasn't this happened so far? EK know they have a quite loyal following who appear to be quite happy with the current product. So, why change?

If, in 2 or 3 years time, loads start to drop off, I'm sure EK will re-consider. The new J seat isn't costing them anything (no retro-fit), so they could bring a new seat/layout if necessary in the future.

ekgoldmember Mar 10, 16 4:06 am

Great product
 
I am here attending ITB Berlin. I already visited the emirates booth which is huge and on 3 levels. On the ground they have the new business class seats and I tried them out. Very comfortable. You sink into the seat and the mini bar now on the bottom right. Makes sense when you extend the chair. TV is huge and they have already modified the ports and added new privacy screen which seems higher. In all a big step up.

ioto1902 Mar 10, 16 4:18 am


Originally Posted by DYKWIA (Post 26311603)
...
If, in 2 or 3 years time, loads start to drop off, I'm sure EK will re-consider. The new J seat isn't costing them anything (no retro-fit), so they could bring a new seat/layout if necessary in the future.

If aviation industry is similar to other industries, there has to be a fixed development cost. The cost is important if you redesign from scratch or if you change the basic structure (seat frame).
Usually, there are three possibilities :
> The maker invoices this charge one-shot.
> The maker spreads this cost on the unit price, in which case, there is a committed purchase volume.
> A mix of the two above.
Therefore, we can't say it costs nothing. There is a certain cost, even if it was just a personalization of an existing model, and this cost is meant to be amortized in a decided number of years.

I don't think that EK plans to revamp J again soon.

EK is just confident that their aggressive price offers will fill their fleet, even if the product itself is a little bit behind. With the development of LCC everywhere, pax are now more sensitive to price than anything else. This goes also for biz pax, or, to be accurate, for companies paying for biz tickets.

NoY Mar 10, 16 4:32 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26311044)
Or just don't choose the middle seat...?

Noooooo. That doesn’t work, now does it! If I am a solo pax flying alone & I take ANY seat in Business Class, I have to either a) have someone climb over me or b) I have to climb over someone (assuming no spare seat next to me). How 90’s is that LOL :D

skywardhunter Mar 10, 16 5:12 am


Originally Posted by NoY (Post 26311745)
Noooooo. That doesnít work, now does it! If I am a solo pax flying alone & I take ANY seat in Business Class, I have to either a) have someone climb over me or b) I have to climb over someone (assuming no spare seat next to me). How 90ís is that LOL :D

I think Emirates is pretty clear in their positioning and what they would say is if you don't want to climb over/be climbed over then buy a first class ticket.

ioto1902 Mar 10, 16 5:31 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26311828)
I think Emirates is pretty clear in their positioning and what they would say is if you don't want to climb over/be climbed over then buy a first class ticket.

Such verbatim wouldn't surprise me coming from Michael O'Leary. Sir Tim would chose his words more carefully. The first one is just a bloody Irish anyway. :D:D

eternaltransit Mar 10, 16 6:06 am


Originally Posted by ioto1902 (Post 26311859)
Such verbatim wouldn't surprise me coming from Michael O'Leary. Sir Tim would chose his words more carefully. The first one is just a bloody Irish anyway. :D:D

Michael O'Leary knows when market sentiment changes and adapt accordingly - now Ryanair is all smiles and customer service with the "Always Getting Better" campaign...which seems to be working for them.

With regards to the comments about density on a 2-3-2 configuration - JL's direct aisle access product in J is on a 77W configured 8-49-40-135, which has 1 row of J in the forward F section. They also have a PE product and are 3-3-3 in Y. Given an EK 77W is 8-42-310 (mainly), equipping new deliveries with 8-42-300 (remove 1 row of Y), is not a stretch. Load factors across the network are not 100% so there would be room to do this, imho.

The argument for 8-49-270 is slightly more difficult (7 J seats could roughly be about the same revenue as 30 Y seats) but the same principle applies.

For the high Y demand routes you always have a 2-class A380 ;)

Canuck2012 Mar 10, 16 6:08 am

My, some of you guys complain a lot. Is having to lift one's leg a few inches in the air to pass over your seat neighbor so onerous? :o

I think these new seats look fantastic, comfortable, like a mini-lounge, as opposed to a sterile dentist chair. Combine good food/drink/hospitality/connectivity, price point, Emirates is hard to beat.

Pity the poor sods who have to fly in economy.

eternaltransit Mar 10, 16 6:24 am


Originally Posted by Canuck2012 (Post 26311953)
My, some of you guys complain a lot. Is having to lift one's leg a few inches in the air to pass over your seat neighbor so onerous? :o

I think these new seats look fantastic, comfortable, like a mini-lounge, as opposed to a sterile dentist chair. Combine good food/drink/hospitality/connectivity, price point, Emirates is hard to beat.

Pity the poor sods who have to fly in economy.

It's not onerous to me - but it is to the person who wakes up if they are a light sleeper, or if I'm on the aisle and you have someone who constantly gets up and wakes you up when you are trying to sleep (after all, isn't that one of the major reasons J is purchased - rest potential?)

The seats are fine. They are a very nice product. The problem is the configuration when 2-3-2 with direct access already exists. It's a solved problem that ticks the revenue density boxes and the customer satisfaction boxes, yet EK, an airline that historically tried to innovate (first airline with personal IFE, first airline with enclosed suite doors in F) now cannot even copy an existing product - and that does not bode well for the future, given the history of the aviation industry. Standards very usually go one-way over a period of time...

The comparison with economy is not really relevant imho; that's like saying pity the people who have to take a packed ferry when you're in a Ryanair jet. Also, this is Flyertalk, the home of first world problems :D

Airline products, either between airlines and other forms of transport, as well as different cabin products are completely different products with completely different expectations (and prices). Although in reality you are simply buying a seat on a plane, some seats are sold and marketed as having additional features - the fact that a basic budget option exists doesn't mean basic budget expectations should still apply on the more expensive, different products. Even in economy people expect and should receive certain standards (of service, of product) - no one should begrudge them that just because they might be on el cheapo tickets. The same applies to those on expensive premium tickets.

For many passengers (most passengers, I think), you are correct of course that the choice of carrier is based on a combination of factors - especially on price point - but for many, many passengers, EK is certainly not the cheapest nor do they take advantage of food and drink because they are jaded travellers ;) For them, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth, imho.

TPJ Mar 10, 16 6:29 am


Originally Posted by extramileage (Post 26276654)
Bad:
"Emirates will retain its current layout of 2-3-2 across...as well as total number of Business Class seats per aircraft at 42."

Much ado about nothing then... Not impressed. How do they want to compete with QR 2-2-2 (current B777 product) or 1-2-1 (current Dreamliner product).

Canuck2012 Mar 10, 16 6:31 am

Well, when I check ticket prices and see Emirates offering biz class fares for $500-1000 less (or more with a seat sale) than competing airlines, it's an easy choice.

Canuck2012 Mar 10, 16 6:33 am


Originally Posted by TPJ (Post 26312004)
Much ado about nothing then... Not impressed. How do they want to compete with QR 2-2-2 (current B777 product) or 1-2-1 (current Dreamliner product).

Don't forget about the new a350 1-2-1 ;)

eternaltransit Mar 10, 16 6:38 am


Originally Posted by Canuck2012 (Post 26312011)
Well, when I check ticket prices and see Emirates offering biz class fares for $500-1000 less (or more with a seat sale) than competing airlines, it's an easy choice.

You're in CAI though, an EK sale land :D

Enhancements Mar 10, 16 6:52 am

Direct aisle access is constantly overrated in FT though... but understandable given how easy it is to describe and debate specs rather than the experience itself.

Price, catering and service IMHO are of much bigger weighting than needing to cross over one's feet 3 times in a flight.

eternaltransit Mar 10, 16 7:10 am


Originally Posted by Enhancements (Post 26312079)
Direct aisle access is constantly overrated in FT though... but understandable given how easy it is to describe and debate specs rather than the experience itself.

Price, catering and service IMHO are of much bigger weighting than needing to cross over one's feet 3 times in a flight.

It's not a zero-sum situation though - direct aisle access in a 2-3-2 configuration doesn't change the cabin density except for perhaps the removal of 10-20 Y seats (and given loan factors are 80%, not 100% potential loss of revenue can be mitigated by a small premium on J fares justified by a now ostensibly superior hard product); catering remains the same; service improves in general (as there is individual access to seats, rather than leaning over people's movie watching, which is a minor irritation, but an irritation nonetheless, and in general, people in J do seem to inflate these minor irritations quite regularly :D)

Additionally, in situations where most people have little experience - so in this case, unless you're flying weekly in J/F long haul, that's what we mean - they reach out to any kind of comparable experience to provide a base-line: given the base-line comparisons are now going to be based on 1-2-1, 2-2-2, which is superficial sure, but we're talking about impressions, then that will pre-dispose many more negatively from the start - which I think is an avoidable mistake on EK's part.

DYKWIA Mar 10, 16 7:21 am


Originally Posted by TPJ (Post 26312004)
Much ado about nothing then... Not impressed. How do they want to compete with QR 2-2-2 (current B777 product) or 1-2-1 (current Dreamliner product).

They already do compete... quite favourably.

Dieuwer Mar 10, 16 7:40 am

And of course with the 2-3-2 product also comes the nightmare of connecting in DXB by bus! Lovely... :rolleyes:
So you save $500 compared to the other guys, but you medical bills are $1000 from all the stress and irritation. ;)

m3red Mar 10, 16 7:48 am


Originally Posted by Dieuwer (Post 26312252)
And of course with the 2-3-2 product also comes the nightmare of connecting in DXB by bus! Lovely... :rolleyes:
So you save $500 compared to the other guys, but you medical bills are $1000 from all the stress and irritation. ;)

You'll be ok no doubt taking advantage of the cheap J and f Alaska redemptions :rolleyes:

Dieuwer Mar 10, 16 7:50 am


Originally Posted by m3red (Post 26312281)
You'll be ok no doubt taking advantage of the cheap J and f Alaska redemptions :rolleyes:

I paid cash to fly EK F, thank you very much :rolleyes:

m3red Mar 10, 16 8:03 am


Originally Posted by Dieuwer (Post 26312294)
I paid cash to fly EK F, thank you very much :rolleyes:

So if you don't fancy bus transfers you have choices then :)

PremiumTraveller Mar 10, 16 9:36 am


Originally Posted by DYKWIA (Post 26311603)
No *people* need to wake up... You want cheaper J fares? Then you'll need to put up with a flat bed, nice food & champagne and great entertainment in a 2x3x2 layout.

OK, you can move on to use other carriers if you want. But why hasn't this happened so far? EK know they have a quite loyal following who appear to be quite happy with the current product. So, why change?

If, in 2 or 3 years time, loads start to drop off, I'm sure EK will re-consider. The new J seat isn't costing them anything (no retro-fit), so they could bring a new seat/layout if necessary in the future.

Well you do make a point on EK's chain of thought, but people do change when competition offers a better overall experience. I speak for myself, I've found flying EY or QR much better in terms of service and hard product and I've found few of my fellow EK PLAT members echoing the same thing!

I don't understand of the logic whereby EK looks to 'allow' loyal customers to divert their revenue to rival carriers due to sub par evolution.

Who knows, maybe EK loyalty comes from their A380 so people 'put up' with onward B777 angled lie flat seats. I spoke to my TA about this and he did mention that EY and QR are gaining momentum. Revenues may not slump today, but I'm sure it will in the not so distant future.

skywardhunter Mar 10, 16 10:30 am


Originally Posted by PremiumTraveller (Post 26312798)
Well you do make a point on EK's chain of thought, but people do change when competition offers a better overall experience. I speak for myself, I've found flying EY or QR much better in terms of service and hard product and I've found few of my fellow EK PLAT members echoing the same thing!

I don't understand of the logic whereby EK looks to 'allow' loyal customers to divert their revenue to rival carriers due to sub par evolution.

Who knows, maybe EK loyalty comes from their A380 so people 'put up' with onward B777 angled lie flat seats. I spoke to my TA about this and he did mention that EY and QR are gaining momentum. Revenues may not slump today, but I'm sure it will in the not so distant future.

EY have a great J product on a fraction of their route. If you want to talk about A380 dependance. The rest of their route is pretty terrible and the ground handling is downright horrendous. AUH transit vs DXB, I'll pick DXB anytime. the bus gate issue is overblown as well, don't get them that often, especially now with concourse D open there should be even fewer. While in AUH half the flights are still from the 1950s looking T1

eternaltransit Mar 10, 16 10:45 am


Originally Posted by skywardhunter (Post 26313077)
EY have a great J product on a fraction of their route. If you want to talk about A380 dependance. The rest of their route is pretty terrible and the ground handling is downright horrendous. AUH transit vs DXB, I'll pick DXB anytime. the bus gate issue is overblown as well, don't get them that often, especially now with concourse D open there should be even fewer. While in AUH half the flights are still from the 1950s looking T1

The J bus is perfectly acceptable at DXB and the F bus is downright civilised!


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