View Poll Results: Is Emirates A Financial Scam?
Yes
27
15.52%
No
106
60.92%
Dont care
35
20.11%
Undecided
6
3.45%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

Is Emirates a financial scam?

Old May 21, 2015, 4:26 am
  #2146  
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Originally Posted by FD1971
Like I posted before, the GDR simply did not allow unemployment, they simply said it does not exist and everybody agreed and said: Amen, Erich
Enough of your Ostalgie, Fortuna.

Here's a simple question for an expert:

The US3 have benefited to a degree that amounts to almost twice the figure plucked from the ether in that badly-compiled, incoherent, and illogical "Open Skies" report (which, perhaps, was compiled by your favourite Weather Channel intern) - aka the US3 "Fairy Tale".

Even assuming that the ME3 have been subsidised to that extent - on what basis are the US3 able to complain? How does a proven scammer get away with accusing another of pulling the same "scam"? Where in the Open Skies agreement that they want torn up does it say that subsidies are OK on the US side only? In what way are "American jobs" at risk, when the route networks of the ME3 and the US3 are complementary (and any reasonable aviation manager in the US should be negotiating a partnership with an ME3 colleague rather than slagging them off. I'm sure that AA is the least willing "combatant" in this battle, and is probably already ruing the side they have chosen, when they had the opportunity to partner with either, or both, of EK and EY - as well as QR who are now in their alliance!).

So what, exactly, are the US3 complaining about, exactly? What is their fundamental, unstated, grievance?

The US3 position makes no sense. There is no merit to their argument - even if their allegations are proven to be true, does this make the ME3 "bad guys"? If so, then how can it not also make the US3 "bad guys" too?

People in glass houses; pot, kettle; scoring an own-goal (I added that soccer metaphor just for you, Fortuna!), etc etc etc
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Old May 21, 2015, 4:31 am
  #2147  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
The EU3 parts used to complain about the US3 parts being "subsidized", but boy did that focus drop after the US3 and EU3 got American and European government-supplied protection to engage in intimate relations with one another so as to more effectively cheat on American and European consumers.
Finally, a comment that makes sense...

Unfortunately, you did not solve the final clue earlier and lost all your points...

But again, nobody ever stated that the US3, let alone the EU18, are clean, so that point is not really relevant, at least if you do not want to shift the focus of the discussion.

I understand that a criminal might try to justify his actions by pointing out that other criminals did the same, but I guess the judge does not really care...
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Old May 21, 2015, 4:33 am
  #2148  
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Originally Posted by FD1971
But again, nobody ever stated that the US3, let alone the EU18, are clean, so that point is not really relevant, at least if you do not want to shift the focus of the discussion.
So, essentially, the ME3 have to show themselves to be whiter than the driven snow, when accused by the far-from-pure US3.

WHY?
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Old May 21, 2015, 4:36 am
  #2149  
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
Enough of your Ostalgie, Fortuna.

Here's a simple question for an expert:

The US3 have benefited to a degree that amounts to almost twice the figure plucked from the ether in that badly-compiled, incoherent, and illogical "Open Skies" report (which, perhaps, was compiled by your favourite Weather Channel intern) - aka the US3 "Fairy Tale".

Even assuming that the ME3 have been subsidised to that extent - on what basis are the US3 able to complain? How does a proven scammer get away with accusing another of pulling the same "scam"? Where in the Open Skies agreement that they want torn up does it say that subsidies are OK on the US side only? In what way are "American jobs" at risk, when the route networks of the ME3 and the US3 are complementary (and any reasonable aviation manager in the US should be negotiating a partnership with an ME3 colleague rather than slagging them off. I'm sure that AA is the least willing "combatant" in this battle, and is probably already ruing the side they have chosen, when they had the opportunity to partner with either, or both, of EK and EY - as well as QR who are now in their alliance!).

So what, exactly, are the US3 complaining about, exactly? What is their fundamental, unstated, grievance?

The US3 position makes no sense. There is no merit to their argument - even if their allegations are proven to be true, does this make the ME3 "bad guys"? If so, then how can it not also make the US3 "bad guys" too?

People in glass houses; pot, kettle; scoring an own-goal (I added that soccer metaphor just for you, Fortuna!), etc etc etc
As pointed out before, countries like the Netherlands invested nearly 20% of their GDP into creating aviation infrastructure after WWII, so are we really trying to start a discussion about the effects of currency exchange rates, inflation, the size of a market, the relevance of the US3 for transporting US troops etc.

No, my friend, but I think even you and eternal are firmly out of the tent now. And the cold hard reality looks a bit different.

Again, Kudos for putting up a good fight, but reality is often hard and cold for all airlines involved, maybe expect Herb's Southwest.

Originally Posted by irishguy28
So, essentially, the ME3 have to show themselves to be whiter than the driven snow, when accused by the far-from-pure US3.

WHY?
Because they wanted too much too fast and woke up too many giants with deep pockets and pretty good connections to their respective Government.

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Old May 21, 2015, 4:40 am
  #2150  
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Originally Posted by FD1971
Finally, a comment that makes sense...

Unfortunately, you did not solve the final clue earlier and lost all your points...

But again, nobody ever stated that the US3, let alone the EU18, are clean, so that point is not really relevant, at least if you do not want to shift the focus of the discussion.

I understand that a criminal might try to justify his actions by pointing out that other criminals did the same, but I guess the judge does not really care...
Whether or not a comment or series of comments makes sense to you, that is for you to own and not my doing.

Where is the evidence of criminal activity by EK, LH or UA? Is Emirates a "financial scam" like Lufthansa or United? Mud-slinging accusations don't change objective understanding, but they may be bought and sold by the unprincipled or ignorant. This all just gets the thread back to "Is Emirates a financial scam like Lufthansa or United?" -- a question that is less like "do you still beat your puppy" than it is a question like "Do you still beat your puppy like your friends and family and neighbors?".

Last edited by GUWonder; May 21, 2015 at 4:52 am
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Old May 21, 2015, 4:48 am
  #2151  
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Originally Posted by FD1971
As pointed out before, countries like the Netherlands invested nearly 20% of their GDP into creating aviation infrastructure after WWII, so are we really trying to start a discussion about the effects of currency exchange rates, inflation, the size of a market, the relevance of the US3 for transporting US troops etc.

No, my friend, but I think even you and eternal are firmly out of the tent now. And the cold hard reality looks a bit different.

Again, Kudos for putting up a good fight, but reality is often hard and cold for all airlines involved, maybe expect Herb's Southwest.
You have a habit of answering questions that weren't asked, or simply starting a monologue that not only does not appear to relate in any way to the topic at hand, but actually makes me wonder what is going on in your head.

Can you answer the question, please? Without digressing to anything that is not directly related to the issue of the specific (and the actual specifics are becoming less and less clear as time drags on) complaint raised against, say, EK?


Originally Posted by FD1971
Because they wanted too much too fast and woke up too many giants with deep pockets and pretty good connections to their respective Government.

Tears for Fears - Mad World
Too much too fast? What does that say about the US3 then? Without apparently modernising fleets, improving product, or serving new markets, they required a figure twice the figure invented in the "Fairy Tale"? Just to keep providing the same old same old service?

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Old May 21, 2015, 4:52 am
  #2152  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Whether or not a comment or series of comments makes sense to you, that is for you to own and not my doing.

Where is the evidence of criminal activity by EK, LH or UA? Is Emirates a "financial scam" like Lufthansa or United? Mud-slinging accusations don't change objective understanding, but they may be bought and sold by the unprincipled or ignorant. This just gets the thread back to "Is Emirates a financial scam like Lufthansa or United?", a question that is less like "do you still beat your puppy" than "Do you still beat your puppy like your friends and family?".
Sorry, but at this point I am fully convinced that most of your contributions are so biased due to your pretty obvious hate of the US3 and EU3 that it is not worthwhile commenting on them any longer.

It is actually sad, because I really think you can bring someting to the table...

And, yes, all airlines are working the Governments and pockets of the tax payer, why should the ME3 be any different?

Oh, yes, because Clark said so.
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Old May 21, 2015, 4:59 am
  #2153  
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Originally Posted by FD1971
And, yes, all airlines are working the Governments and pockets of the tax payer, why should the ME3 be any different?
If it's so reasonable, and you say everyone else is doing it - then why is it only a problem if the ME3 are doing it?



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Old May 21, 2015, 5:15 am
  #2154  
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Originally Posted by FD1971
Sorry, but at this point I am fully convinced that most of your contributions are so biased due to your pretty obvious hate of the US3 and EU3 that it is not worthwhile commenting on them any longer.
In other words, you can't provide any reason for why ME3 carriers should be held to a higher standard than the US3 or EU3. Got it.
If you want to see biased contributions, read your own posts. @:-)
You should stick to figuring out how to utilize L-188 aircraft in the best way, and leave the jet airline analysis to people who have experience and knowledge that is still relevant.

(Before you accuse me of being a US3 hater, consider the fact that some posters in the MR forum accused me of being a UA employee because I didn't think that UA should have to honor the Danish Feint tickets...)

Last edited by UA1K_no_more; May 21, 2015 at 5:36 am
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Old May 21, 2015, 5:51 am
  #2155  
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
If it's so reasonable, and you say everyone else is doing it - then why is it only a problem if the ME3 are doing it?
It is not a problem for me, why should it be. I pointed it out since my first post that every state-owned airlines is on steriods...

Does it really surprise you that a Government-owned company runs into trouble 125 years after Sherman in the US, 30 years after Thatcher, 20 years after the privatisation of Deutsche Telekom in Germany and, wait for the kicker, in France at all

Different times, different opinions, although the matter is still the same.

Again, Tears for Fears Mad World (and the Cranberries one was unexpected, but appreciated nevertheless. ^^)
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Old May 21, 2015, 5:56 am
  #2156  
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So would you agree that there is a huge amount of hypocrisy in the US3 asking the federal government to curb the ME3's access to the US market for an allegation of doing something that the US3 have been doing/benefitting from for decades? Not least in the last decade or so?

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Old May 21, 2015, 6:11 am
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Originally Posted by FD1971
Oh Boy, Americans and Soccer is like... Emirates and making money from ops...

Just a small hint, you should take a look at the proposed dates during the election process, not the amended dates after everybody told them that there idea is, how can I put it objectively, the most stupid idea in the history of sports ever...
Um, the US national team is second only to Germany in the most recent Women's rankings, and one of the favorites to win the World Cup in Canada next month. Or does women playing soccer not count? Drew 1-1 with Germany in the Men's World Cup last summer. Made the second round (from the "group of death"!), which was better than some European stalwarts like England, Spain and Portugal, so again your soccer analogy don't quite work for your case. All it shows is that you have certain pre-conceived notions (like Americans don't know soccer/ Emirates doesn't make money from ops) and you will go to lengths to defend your set ideas and biases.

And indeed, the summer dates in Qatar would have been madness. Good thing better sense has prevailed. But that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Last edited by knit-in; May 21, 2015 at 6:21 am
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Old May 21, 2015, 7:07 am
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Originally Posted by FD1971
Maybe, you should also state the ICAO position on those charges and point out what Russia does in case you refuse to follow international law and rely on Russian law.

But I wonder why you did not comment on the 2.3 billion and all the firms surrounding Emirates?
Nothing suspicious, I have to do some work - but of course will come back to address the rest of your post as soon as I find some time.

Although, if the 2.3bn USD refers to the fuel hedge, that has already been discussed in very many posts here - we need Morgan Stanley and the other counterparties to confirm the terms of the derivative transactions such as strike prices and specifics of the margin calls made and how they were satisfied). 4bn simply refers to the notional value of the derivative (such as the market value of the total amount of fuel to be hedged, not the actual losses or profits on the instruments themselves when they were settled/unwound early).
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Old May 21, 2015, 7:29 am
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Originally Posted by FD1971
It is not a problem for me, why should it be. I pointed it out since my first post that every state-owned airlines is on steriods...

Does it really surprise you that a Government-owned company runs into trouble 125 years after Sherman in the US, 30 years after Thatcher, 20 years after the privatisation of Deutsche Telekom in Germany and, wait for the kicker, in France at all

Different times, different opinions, although the matter is still the same.

Again, Tears for Fears Mad World (and the Cranberries one was unexpected, but appreciated nevertheless. ^^)
This combined with the comment about Clark in 2144:

Like I posted before, the GDR simply did not allow unemployment, they simply said it does not exist and everybody agreed and said: Amen, Erich

It is the same here, Clark says No and expects us to say Yes and Amen.
is indicative that you view the issue of EK and ME3 operations as much more of an political-economic ideological issue rather than a simple evaluation of the evidence at hand - and ideologically you seem to find the idea that government-owned companies operating in the "free market" on their own rather offensive, your conscious statements that you "only care about best-practices in management" in previous posts notwithstanding.

It is not impossible for fully state-owned enterprises to be competitive, and profitably sustainable, neither is it morally wrong, unless you are on an economic crusade for the rather libertarian principle of private enterprise to the exclusion of all else. After all here is one fully state-owned enterprise that is sustainably profitable in a notoriously difficult industry (transport infrastructure). Ideologically of course, the demands for it re-privatisation have won, so back into the private sector it goes.

I think that bias is preventing you from admitting, objectively, that it is plausible that EK could make money without being secretly funded - and the mental gymnastics and confluence of conspiracy required (and the scale: thousands of people would have to be in on it, for decades, unlike the sports analogies you bring up to try and equate to EKs position which only need a few) are stunning, more stunning than the disbelief that one airline out of dozens has been able to make it - not unique of course, you do mention Southwest, I mentioned Ryanair which didn't need the public airport money to be profitable, as well as say, CX, SQ or AirAsia in the early days.

That ideological issue also makes it seem that innocent-until-proven-guilty is thrown out of the window too, which is unfortunate. There is no smoking gun, all the "evidence" presented against EK is circumstantial (and debunkable), that relies on inferences that are only possible with double standards and political/ideological biases.
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Old May 21, 2015, 7:36 am
  #2160  
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Seems to be no mention here that the Dutch are now preventing the ME3 from getting any additional landing rights at AMS.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/dutch...l#.VV3an9I5KcM

Last edited by iahphx; May 21, 2015 at 8:39 am Reason: typo
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