More expensive. Always. But you get an entire plane. The absolute smallest (4-seater Phenom 100) jets are about $2500/hr and up, and at 500 mph... you are looking at $5/mile in the best case. Assuming you are gonna take it on a roundtrip (so no charge for positioning). Bigger jets are even more.

But if you are flying, say, the entire board of your company ... to a remote location ... on a per-person basis, it's possibly comparable to F in price. And faster. And it goes direct to where you want to go. With no stopovers. On your schedule. Etc. In other words .... you get what you pay for.

Premium F isn't going to work for US airlines until they drop the label from their domestic "F" offerings. What "F" means on a US carrier is so ridiculously all over the map that it can never have the value, in many customer's minds, that it needs to command a high-enough price to justify a super-premium service.

On FT, sure, we understand the differences between International anything and Domestic anything. But the domestic carriers do nothing to draw attention to those differences, and I doubt it could be unwound at this time. The damage is done.

In Europe, most "domestic" (within EU) flights don't even claim an "F" section, but rather "business" which is nothing more than a middle seat that's been replaced by a tray. As much of a perversion of the notion of "business" as the US carriers do with "first class." Wonder how much of that has to do with FF redemption? People flying an International leg on a legit C that don't want to see that "mixed cabin" note?

Air Canada "Rouge" is also guilty of this "Business Class coach seat" travesty, I learned to my dismay a couple of weeks ago. And the food and beverage choices are a joke compared to LH or LX. So the concept has regrettably already landed in North America.

I agree.

Here is something I once wrote in an e-mail to a previous Client ("RR") operating F on only a relatively small number of aircraft:

Afford a whole one? Remember the 3 F's. If it flys floats or fornicates: Lease it.

That's the funniest thing I have heard all day. I'm going to wait until my wife gets home from work and tell her you told me to say that ;)

Well that may be true but only because their J is so far inferior to the J in 2 Cabins!!

I've never been on a private jet ( My experience is limited to F on EK) but know several people who use them regularly. AFAIK there are not that many private jets (that can be leased/chartered)with the same specs as the F suite on a 380. Of course there is EK 's own version of the same but I'm not sure about its availability .

From what I have heard from my mates ( and seeing the pics from several PJ trips) the service/food/ cabin features like ICE seem to be much better on F on EK than on a PJ.Obviously they dont have a choice while going on business trips but a F seat on a proper commercial airliner would be their first choice when travelling for leisure .


Also note that I am not comparing an american carriers F seat with a PJ. A PJ makes more sense in the US. My opinion is about the Europe/Middle east/South Asian region(this thread is on the Emirates Skywards section after all)

First cabins might disappear on carriers from the West but are likely to thrive in the Middle Eastern/Asian carriers . F cabins are frequently full on several sectors on EK and obviously EK and other airlines won't have them if they are not viable. Etihad would not also plan an apartment suite if it was not worth the effort.

Actually I think UA should be the first airline to get rid of F, because it is so bad.

If people are unwilling to pay 2x for F, its because it doesn't offer 2x the value proposition of J.

Airlines are in general pretty bad at serving the premium segment and meeting customer needs. When someone is forking out thousands of dollars for transportation, everything needs to be perfect, and sadly it isn't. It also needs to be available (almost) everywhere the passenger wants to travel - the more routes it is on, the more traffic it generates, and the more sustainable it is.

I can't say that even the likes of EK create an F experience that delivers 100% - poor transfer in DXB, no separate lounges at busy outstations etc. The one for me that has come closest to delivering a truly outstanding F experience is LH on their 747 upper deck - everything from ground services on departure, to the onboard experience (space, comfort, privacy, service, quality) and transfers at FRA (for the most part). And there's a perceptible difference to the C cabin, in every aspect of the experience.

My friends recently flew JetSuite (small private outfit based here at SNA) from SNA to Vegas for $5,000 one way (seating 4) and from Vegas to Napa for $9,000 one way (seating 6). SNA to Hawaii according to them was $19,000 one way. First Class commercial may seem expensive, but private jet prices are FAR more expensive--which is why the overwhelming majority of people we know who fly private are those working for companies that own a jet or lease through the various fractional/hourly services.

When flying really longhaul (USA-Asia or USA to Australia or the like, NOT the same as JFK-London!), the private jet costs are extremely expensive since only the biggest jets have that kind of range--we're talking $100,000s. THAT is one reason the longest haul commercial flights likely will continue to offer F since it will still be less pricey than the private jet options. East Coast to Europe, while technically longhaul, is not nearly as prohibitive, and as a result there is far more private jet traffic for the corporate set.

On United the difference between F and J is a slightly bigger seat and perhaps a bowl of soup, for about twice the price. It's ridiculous. And anyhow UA aspiring to deliver a competitive international F product is like Greyhound dispatching a fleet of luxury Maybachs. It just ain't in their wheelhouse.

I doubt rebranding domestic F is confusing anyone. The market segment that flies these classes likely understands quite well the distinction. The general lay person out there that doesn't isn't likely to be in the market for these F seats, anyway.

From my last flight about 2 months ago, it's pretty much just an extra warm appetizer, seats are a suite configuration that Air New Zealand and Air Canada does, only 8 seats. (United) And bigger amenities kit. Just only 2 extra Philosophy products that happen to also be discontinued...

I do find that first class is mostly, probably in my opinion, mostly people who were able to upgrade or flew via award bookings. From my experience since my dad and I use our award miles to fly on first class (dad always goes first class, mine was a one time deal for graduating college.)

From friends who work at UA, there are still plenty of customers willing to pay for F in certain routes--usually the "corporate" or "big money" routes out of EWR, IAD, and SFO, and to a lesser extent ORD, according to me friend. I was surprised LAX didn't join that group, but that is apparently one reason why LAX has been reduced in favor of SFO for UA. (Which bums me out as I live in SoCal!)

Clearly, American tastes and customs are different in terms of these extravagances compared to those in Asia, the Middle East, and even parts of South America--places with longer histories of significant wealth disparity where there always have been a solid group of super-rich. That is why American carriers offer less extravagance compared to counterpart carriers in those other regions...and even why European carriers offer less extravagance in comparison or in the same volume.

But you are incorrect in assuming that UA's value proposition for F is so different. UA doesn't put as much extravagance in its F compared to its Asian/Middle Eastern counterparts, but its F product is as good if not slightly better (and far more available) than that of AA (with just 14 planes offering it) and DL (since they don't even offer true international F). So UA is competitive for these F paying customers COMPARED to AA and DL. It's a big American market, and they get a large piece of that pie. It's also a nice perk to offer their GS and most elite customers (upgrade to F from J, Sir or Madame?), which helps keep some of those elites and GS happy with UA compared to foreign airlines.

Everyone forgets that US rich can't fly frequently on a foreign carrier unless they ALWAYS fly to the same region--as the Asian carriers don't serve the USA to Europe and the Gulf/European carriers don't serve the USA to Asia. Sometimes, the US carriers are the better way to go for corporate contracts, and these permit UA to continue to offer F (for the time being at least).

With less competition for premium F offerings, the Asian and Gulf carriers win for their offering. Well, with AA and DL giving up on F offerings on their networks, UA is actually better positioned among THOSE as the only US carrier still offering a F product on most routes (again, for the time being). That does help UA in the absence of competition from AA and DL.

:confused: Gulf carriers don't connect USA to asia ???