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If ELAL don't fly on Shabbat, then how come...

If ELAL don't fly on Shabbat, then how come...

Old Jun 25, 07, 9:24 am
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If ELAL don't fly on Shabbat, then how come...

The LY318 leaving this Saturday night from LHR, is scheduled to leave 5 minutes before Shabbat goes out...?
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Old Jun 25, 07, 4:17 pm
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Because given the departure airport involved, the plane *won't* be flying before the end of Shabbat...
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Old Jun 26, 07, 2:57 am
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Originally Posted by HeathrowGuy View Post
Because given the departure airport involved, the plane *won't* be flying before the end of Shabbat...
Well, yes obviously it won't, but it's still scheduled to...
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Old Jun 26, 07, 1:46 pm
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It really doesn't matter if the plane is scheduled to go out 5 minutes before Shabbat ends. That will not discourage anyone from being on the flight.

Even if the plane were scheduled to take off 1 hour after Shabbat is over there would not be a single Shabbat-observant Jew on it.

In the most extreme case someone who wanted the earliest possible flight would be staying at a hotel at the airport. The moment that Shabbat ended, he would get a taxi directly to the hotel (let's say this takes 5 minutes). He would have to plan for a minimum of 30 minutes for check in and El Al Security (and we all know that is cutting it very close).

Then he would have to go to the Gate (say a 10 minute walk) and, on his way, go through Passport Control (5 minutes) and LHR airport security (another 10 minutes).

All of this would take a minimum of 1 hour -- and he would have to hope that boarding is still open.

Given all of that, why does it matter when the flight is scheduled to take off (assuming that it doesn't actually begin flying until after Shabbat)?
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Old Jun 26, 07, 3:41 pm
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The exact time that shabbat goes out can vary (by a few minutes) according to different authorities. Perhaps according to some, shabbat was out at that time?
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Old Jun 26, 07, 4:54 pm
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Originally Posted by 1/[email protected] View Post
The exact time that shabbat goes out can vary (by a few minutes) according to different authorities. Perhaps according to some, shabbat was out at that time?

Even if the flight should leave at 5 mins after what an Orthodox Rabbi holds to be the earliest possible time that Shabbos ends, well thats when the flight itself will take off, mean while hours before LY employees would have to be braking the Shabbath in order for that flight to take-off.

Last edited by craz; Jun 27, 07 at 7:30 pm
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Old Jun 27, 07, 12:28 pm
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Old Jun 27, 07, 3:58 pm
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Originally Posted by 1/[email protected] View Post
The exact time that shabbat goes out can vary (by a few minutes) according to different authorities. Perhaps according to some, shabbat was out at that time?
Perhaps according to the ElAl authority...?
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Old Jul 4, 07, 5:41 am
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Definitive Answer - The latest Shabbat goes out in London is 10.28pm (as per the week in question). This is based on the times by the London Bet Din, the leading mainstream authority. Therefore, technically, a 10.30pm departure does not break the rules. The preparations beforehand are a separate issue but do not fall foul of the 'flying on Shabbat' rules.

Hope that brings some clarity.

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Old Jul 8, 09, 1:16 am
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Originally Posted by TLVFred View Post
Definitive Answer - The latest Shabbat goes out in London is 10.28pm (as per the week in question). This is based on the times by the London Bet Din, the leading mainstream authority. Therefore, technically, a 10.30pm departure does not break the rules. The preparations beforehand are a separate issue but do not fall foul of the 'flying on Shabbat' rules.

Hope that brings some clarity.

Fred
This year (according to my calender at least), the latest shabbos finishes at 22:37.
In my opinion it's very understanding that ELAL aren't going to bother messing about with their Heathrow slots, due to once a week, for a few weeks a year, they have to depart by a maximum of 7 minutes later, they would rather just simply depart 7 minutes later
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Old Jul 8, 09, 6:28 pm
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Originally Posted by ELAL View Post
This year (according to my calender at least), the latest shabbos finishes at 22:37.
In my opinion it's very understanding that ELAL aren't going to bother messing about with their Heathrow slots, due to once a week, for a few weeks a year, they have to depart by a maximum of 7 minutes later, they would rather just simply depart 7 minutes later
It really depends where you are, If you are in Tel-Aviv shabbos will end ealier than in Beer-sheba or Jerusalem (or vice versa, i am familiar with the exact
order, but i know there is a different), The sames goes for LA, NYC, Jersey
and other...

So if going by the book, There is not fixed time for Shabbos to end on all
places the same time.
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Old Jul 8, 09, 11:16 pm
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Originally Posted by ebzed View Post
It really depends where you are, If you are in Tel-Aviv shabbos will end ealier than in Beer-sheba or Jerusalem (or vice versa, i am familiar with the exact
order, but i know there is a different), The sames goes for LA, NYC, Jersey
and other...

So if going by the book, There is not fixed time for Shabbos to end on all
places the same time.
Well of course, we're talking about London where Heathrow is located
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Old Jul 9, 09, 6:12 pm
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Once again - latest shabbat went out this year was 10.26 according to London Beth Din. 10.37 is the extra time for 'tosefet shabbat'. ELAL have fixed 10.30 because a) shabbat never goes out after 10.28 and b) that is the latest schedule time LHR allows.
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Old Jul 9, 09, 10:16 pm
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Originally Posted by TLVFred View Post
Once again - latest shabbat went out this year was 10.26 according to London Beth Din. 10.37 is the extra time for 'tosefet shabbat'.
Not quite correct. 10:28 also includes 'tosefet shabbat'. There is a disagreement as to the definition of 'nightfall' between different authorities. LBD follows the slightly more lenient approach, whereas the 'Adas' communities follow a slightly stricter approach. The difference varies, but is at most about 10/11 minutes (in the spring and autumn it is about 7 minutes).
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Old Jul 10, 09, 2:43 am
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Originally Posted by mikebg View Post
Not quite correct. 10:28 also includes 'tosefet shabbat'. There is a disagreement as to the definition of 'nightfall' between different authorities. LBD follows the slightly more lenient approach, whereas the 'Adas' communities follow a slightly stricter approach. The difference varies, but is at most about 10/11 minutes (in the spring and autumn it is about 7 minutes).
I hope that this discussion between you is just a good natured Halachic discourse.

It is a known fact that EL AL does fly on Shabbat, be it Sun D'or which is EL AL in disguise, unmarked planes, "training" flights etc.

I live near the airport, and EL AL flights can be seen in the air on Shabbat

The fact that the plane leaves the runway after Shabbat is over , does not lessen the Chilul Shabbat involved in getting that plane in the air.

We unfortunately look the other way, or conveniently disregard the facts, but let us not fool ourselves in saying that it does not fly on Shabbat
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