Yediot: Two rabbis get woman-free EL AL flight
Aug 20, 2007, 7:26 pm
#46
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And I thought this forum was about airlines not religious battles. 
Aug 20, 2007, 11:12 pm
#47
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With all due respect to all that have posted:
I can understand that it may seem in excess or as others put it that money can be used for other important causes. But as someone whose family foundation has contributed significant sums to both the Gerrer organization and to charites that the esteemed Rav Steinman have been active in, I can honestly say that in regards to both Rabbis and their representive organizations, that they are not in it for themselves in the least bit. Which other 93 year old person would fly on a plane for 11 hours to go ahead and raise money, not for themselves or something that they get paid for, but for an organization, that they themselves support.
Believe me sitting in a plane is not at all easy. No matter how u slice it or what class yr travelling in. These people aren't in it for the miles. I can only say that every single penny they take in they are accountable for. The fact that they are coming in for different reasons (both of which are to help people) and that they coordinated it to travel together, to CUT DOWN on expenses shows that they are concerned with the bottom line.
Regarding their requests, why is it that when a rock star or any other celb, has their demands, which is specified down to the color of the "m&m" that people do not make a huge deal out of it. With the celbs it is to pamper themselves, with these Rabbi's it is for them to maintain what they call, "shmirat eynayim", meaning, that these pple are very carefull of what they see, (not in any discriminatory manner) and if these are their standards, then El Al I am sure, is head over heals happy to oblige, as them flying El Al, it is giving their endorsment, to hundreds of thousands of pple
I can understand that it may seem in excess or as others put it that money can be used for other important causes. But as someone whose family foundation has contributed significant sums to both the Gerrer organization and to charites that the esteemed Rav Steinman have been active in, I can honestly say that in regards to both Rabbis and their representive organizations, that they are not in it for themselves in the least bit. Which other 93 year old person would fly on a plane for 11 hours to go ahead and raise money, not for themselves or something that they get paid for, but for an organization, that they themselves support.
Believe me sitting in a plane is not at all easy. No matter how u slice it or what class yr travelling in. These people aren't in it for the miles. I can only say that every single penny they take in they are accountable for. The fact that they are coming in for different reasons (both of which are to help people) and that they coordinated it to travel together, to CUT DOWN on expenses shows that they are concerned with the bottom line.
Regarding their requests, why is it that when a rock star or any other celb, has their demands, which is specified down to the color of the "m&m" that people do not make a huge deal out of it. With the celbs it is to pamper themselves, with these Rabbi's it is for them to maintain what they call, "shmirat eynayim", meaning, that these pple are very carefull of what they see, (not in any discriminatory manner) and if these are their standards, then El Al I am sure, is head over heals happy to oblige, as them flying El Al, it is giving their endorsment, to hundreds of thousands of pple
Aug 21, 2007, 8:12 am
#48
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With all due respect to all that have posted:
I can understand that it may seem in excess or as others put it that money can be used for other important causes. But as someone whose family foundation has contributed significant sums to both the Gerrer organization and to charites that the esteemed Rav Steinman have been active in, I can honestly say that in regards to both Rabbis and their representive organizations, that they are not in it for themselves in the least bit. Which other 93 year old person would fly on a plane for 11 hours to go ahead and raise money, not for themselves or something that they get paid for, but for an organization, that they themselves support.
Believe me sitting in a plane is not at all easy. No matter how u slice it or what class yr travelling in. These people aren't in it for the miles. I can only say that every single penny they take in they are accountable for. The fact that they are coming in for different reasons (both of which are to help people) and that they coordinated it to travel together, to CUT DOWN on expenses shows that they are concerned with the bottom line.
Regarding their requests, why is it that when a rock star or any other celb, has their demands, which is specified down to the color of the "m&m" that people do not make a huge deal out of it. With the celbs it is to pamper themselves, with these Rabbi's it is for them to maintain what they call, "shmirat eynayim", meaning, that these pple are very carefull of what they see, (not in any discriminatory manner) and if these are their standards, then El Al I am sure, is head over heals happy to oblige, as them flying El Al, it is giving their endorsment, to hundreds of thousands of pple
I can understand that it may seem in excess or as others put it that money can be used for other important causes. But as someone whose family foundation has contributed significant sums to both the Gerrer organization and to charites that the esteemed Rav Steinman have been active in, I can honestly say that in regards to both Rabbis and their representive organizations, that they are not in it for themselves in the least bit. Which other 93 year old person would fly on a plane for 11 hours to go ahead and raise money, not for themselves or something that they get paid for, but for an organization, that they themselves support.
Believe me sitting in a plane is not at all easy. No matter how u slice it or what class yr travelling in. These people aren't in it for the miles. I can only say that every single penny they take in they are accountable for. The fact that they are coming in for different reasons (both of which are to help people) and that they coordinated it to travel together, to CUT DOWN on expenses shows that they are concerned with the bottom line.
Regarding their requests, why is it that when a rock star or any other celb, has their demands, which is specified down to the color of the "m&m" that people do not make a huge deal out of it. With the celbs it is to pamper themselves, with these Rabbi's it is for them to maintain what they call, "shmirat eynayim", meaning, that these pple are very carefull of what they see, (not in any discriminatory manner) and if these are their standards, then El Al I am sure, is head over heals happy to oblige, as them flying El Al, it is giving their endorsment, to hundreds of thousands of pple
Personally even if they are paying for the seat out of their own pockets, I feel its best for a Leading Rabbi/Sage not to fly in 1st or Biz, in order to set an example.
OT; theres a thing out there that a wedding shouldnt have more then 400 Guests that will be sitting down to the meal that the leading Rabbis (Yeshiva) have called for. Yet when its their own kid or grandchild thats the 1 getting Married then its AOK to have a very large affair. If anything they themselves should be setting an example.
Now lets say LY gave them the 1st Class compartment for free, Id say if the whole plane was a Charter then maybe but since that wasnt the case, how will everyone in Coach who will see them up in 1st or Biz know the seats were for free? The only thing where Id say it would be proper is if they will be able to get work done when up there and they will hit the pavement once they land and if they werent up there then they would need a day to get back to themselves. But Generally they should set an example
Aug 22, 2007, 12:45 am
#49
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First off, on principle it sounds very nice what you say. 2 things, how can anyone expect someone who is 92 or 93 to sit in coach. If these rabbis were in coach, it would disrupt the whole flight for everyone on the plane. As well how can these leaders be expected to function, when they will get no sleep or peace and quiet. They are not like the rest of us. PERIOD.
Let us see some other religious leader that is the same stature of these rabbis fly in coach, its really amazing the discrimination and self hatred of our own holy people. In regards to the wedding comment, I am full aware of the statement put out. But if you would take the time to read it in full you would stop using it as a matter of spitting it back.
When these rabbis make weddings for their kids, it aint no Preston Bailey (he is the considered the top & most expensive wedding designer in North America) extravaganza. The weddings may be huge but they are certainly not lavish in the least bit. The reason that they are big, is not for the rabbis benefit, but rather for his "chassidim" (followers) sake, so they can all share in the joy of the wedding.
This whole 400 pple thing, is meant for pple to cut back on the lavishness of the event, and to take away, from setting such a high standard that people are forced to compete with. Another thing, for your information is that some people who make lavish weddings will take the same amount they spent on the weddings, and take it and give the same amount away to charity to help poor people make weddings.
Let us see some other religious leader that is the same stature of these rabbis fly in coach, its really amazing the discrimination and self hatred of our own holy people. In regards to the wedding comment, I am full aware of the statement put out. But if you would take the time to read it in full you would stop using it as a matter of spitting it back.
When these rabbis make weddings for their kids, it aint no Preston Bailey (he is the considered the top & most expensive wedding designer in North America) extravaganza. The weddings may be huge but they are certainly not lavish in the least bit. The reason that they are big, is not for the rabbis benefit, but rather for his "chassidim" (followers) sake, so they can all share in the joy of the wedding.
This whole 400 pple thing, is meant for pple to cut back on the lavishness of the event, and to take away, from setting such a high standard that people are forced to compete with. Another thing, for your information is that some people who make lavish weddings will take the same amount they spent on the weddings, and take it and give the same amount away to charity to help poor people make weddings.
Aug 22, 2007, 9:05 pm
#50
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
Sad.
The tickets were paid for by close supporters of the Rabbi's. Why can't we all assume they flew First for privacy and allocation of time reasons.
The funny thing is if a wealthy American man paid for the entire first class and asked for all female stewardesses -this would be less of a story.
These Rabbi's clearly are trying to hold themselves to strict rigid moral standards (perhaps ones that you and I do not follow) - why can't we allow them to??
The tickets were paid for by close supporters of the Rabbi's. Why can't we all assume they flew First for privacy and allocation of time reasons.
The funny thing is if a wealthy American man paid for the entire first class and asked for all female stewardesses -this would be less of a story.
These Rabbi's clearly are trying to hold themselves to strict rigid moral standards (perhaps ones that you and I do not follow) - why can't we allow them to??
Aug 22, 2007, 9:29 pm
#51
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I have absolutely no objections to El Al reserving an entire cabin for anyone who is willing to pay for it and to make accomodations for them.
I also think that in the case of religious leaders (especially, as Israel is the Jewish state, rabbis) that such accomodations should fit their religious beliefs.
I certainly hope we can all agree on that.
As Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America, I would expect El Al to make accomodations for Reform rabbis on its TLV-JFK flights.
In fact, I could well see a large Reform temple taking every seat, in all cabins, on a flight. I am certain that none of those who support the rabbi's banning of the female FAs would mind if the flight were scheduled for a Saturday so that the rabbi could be back in time for an inter-faith sermon at a nearby church on Sunday morning.
Moreover, if it is a female rabbi and she wants to perform a wedding ceremony on board for a gay couple, I know that all of the haredim would join me in wishing the pair "mazel tov".
(And, as long as disposable plates/utensils are used, there should be no objection to serving non-kosher meals to those on the flight who prefer it, right?)
I also think that in the case of religious leaders (especially, as Israel is the Jewish state, rabbis) that such accomodations should fit their religious beliefs.
I certainly hope we can all agree on that.
As Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America, I would expect El Al to make accomodations for Reform rabbis on its TLV-JFK flights.
In fact, I could well see a large Reform temple taking every seat, in all cabins, on a flight. I am certain that none of those who support the rabbi's banning of the female FAs would mind if the flight were scheduled for a Saturday so that the rabbi could be back in time for an inter-faith sermon at a nearby church on Sunday morning.
Moreover, if it is a female rabbi and she wants to perform a wedding ceremony on board for a gay couple, I know that all of the haredim would join me in wishing the pair "mazel tov".
(And, as long as disposable plates/utensils are used, there should be no objection to serving non-kosher meals to those on the flight who prefer it, right?)
Aug 23, 2007, 7:47 am
#52
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I have absolutely no objections to El Al reserving an entire cabin for anyone who is willing to pay for it and to make accomodations for them.
I also think that in the case of religious leaders (especially, as Israel is the Jewish state, rabbis) that such accomodations should fit their religious beliefs.
I certainly hope we can all agree on that.
As Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America, I would expect El Al to make accomodations for Reform rabbis on its TLV-JFK flights.
In fact, I could well see a large Reform temple taking every seat, in all cabins, on a flight. I am certain that none of those who support the rabbi's banning of the female FAs would mind if the flight were scheduled for a Saturday so that the rabbi could be back in time for an inter-faith sermon at a nearby church on Sunday morning.
Moreover, if it is a female rabbi and she wants to perform a wedding ceremony on board for a gay couple, I know that all of the haredim would join me in wishing the pair "mazel tov".
(And, as long as disposable plates/utensils are used, there should be no objection to serving non-kosher meals to those on the flight who prefer it, right?)
I also think that in the case of religious leaders (especially, as Israel is the Jewish state, rabbis) that such accomodations should fit their religious beliefs.
I certainly hope we can all agree on that.
As Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America, I would expect El Al to make accomodations for Reform rabbis on its TLV-JFK flights.
In fact, I could well see a large Reform temple taking every seat, in all cabins, on a flight. I am certain that none of those who support the rabbi's banning of the female FAs would mind if the flight were scheduled for a Saturday so that the rabbi could be back in time for an inter-faith sermon at a nearby church on Sunday morning.
Moreover, if it is a female rabbi and she wants to perform a wedding ceremony on board for a gay couple, I know that all of the haredim would join me in wishing the pair "mazel tov".
(And, as long as disposable plates/utensils are used, there should be no objection to serving non-kosher meals to those on the flight who prefer it, right?)
Aug 23, 2007, 9:37 am
#53
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Just look up the index of embassies, and you will see the Holy Sea mentioned in most countries. There is also a Minister of Foreign Affairs, they have their own Army, their own money (but not used) and their own postal system (including stamps) ...
It is a small country, but still a country. The only smaller country is the Order of Maltec Knights .. they don't have a country but found sanctuary in Malta
Aug 23, 2007, 9:23 pm
#55
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It is very nice that Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America. I ask what accommodations should be made for them. Should we serve them (as YOU alluded to) glatt kosher or regular pork.
For someone who is a flyer talk board member, you have a certain responsibilty for what you post. El Al is the airline of ISRAEL, the land of the JEWS. Yes there are other religions in Israel but ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE.
How dare you insult the reform movement with your degrading post. I am not reform,(actually Orthodox, not that it matters) but I have many reform friends, who would take offense by reffering to accomodations made for Reform Rabbi's would be serving them PURE TREIF on SHABBOS.
Reform Judaism, as a friend of mine (who happens to be the senior rabbi of Canada's largest and oldest Reform Temple) stands for positive change, bringing Judaism to the people, and altering it to fit the times that we live in. NOT GOING AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT JUDAISM STANDS FOR.
THE SEVENTH DAY YOU SHALL REST. THAT DAY IS SATURDAY TO YOU AND SHABBOS, TO THE REST OF JUDAISM. If you want to make reform judaism to be something that is a different religion, go ahead and create your own religion, but do not create a bad name for reform Judaism, because reform judaism has done and will continue to do so very much for the people of Israel, the land of Israel and the Jewish people.
The disgusting hatred that spews from your remarks towards people who are trying to carry out their service to the Jewish people in a way that it does not disturb the general public, is disgusting.
This is what they need, they paid for it, it is not going against anything rule of El Al.
Flying on Saturday, and serving non kosher is going against El Al's rules, because (I am sure you hate to hear this) EL AL is the national airline of ISRAEL and ISRAEL is a jewish state.
For someone who is a flyer talk board member, you have a certain responsibilty for what you post. El Al is the airline of ISRAEL, the land of the JEWS. Yes there are other religions in Israel but ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE.
How dare you insult the reform movement with your degrading post. I am not reform,(actually Orthodox, not that it matters) but I have many reform friends, who would take offense by reffering to accomodations made for Reform Rabbi's would be serving them PURE TREIF on SHABBOS.
Reform Judaism, as a friend of mine (who happens to be the senior rabbi of Canada's largest and oldest Reform Temple) stands for positive change, bringing Judaism to the people, and altering it to fit the times that we live in. NOT GOING AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT JUDAISM STANDS FOR.
THE SEVENTH DAY YOU SHALL REST. THAT DAY IS SATURDAY TO YOU AND SHABBOS, TO THE REST OF JUDAISM. If you want to make reform judaism to be something that is a different religion, go ahead and create your own religion, but do not create a bad name for reform Judaism, because reform judaism has done and will continue to do so very much for the people of Israel, the land of Israel and the Jewish people.
The disgusting hatred that spews from your remarks towards people who are trying to carry out their service to the Jewish people in a way that it does not disturb the general public, is disgusting.
This is what they need, they paid for it, it is not going against anything rule of El Al.
Flying on Saturday, and serving non kosher is going against El Al's rules, because (I am sure you hate to hear this) EL AL is the national airline of ISRAEL and ISRAEL is a jewish state.
Aug 23, 2007, 9:53 pm
#56
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How dare you insult the reform movement with your degrading post. I am not reform,(actually Orthodox, not that it matters) but I have many reform friends, who would take offense by reffering to accomodations made for Reform Rabbi's would be serving them PURE TREIF on SHABBOS.
(snip)
The disgusting hatred that spews from your remarks towards people who are trying to carry out their service to the Jewish people in a way that it does not disturb the general public, is disgusting.
This is what they need, they paid for it, it is not going against anything rule of El Al.
Flying on Saturday, and serving non kosher is going against El Al's rules, because (I am sure you hate to hear this) EL AL is the national airline of ISRAEL and ISRAEL is a jewish state.
(snip)
The disgusting hatred that spews from your remarks towards people who are trying to carry out their service to the Jewish people in a way that it does not disturb the general public, is disgusting.
This is what they need, they paid for it, it is not going against anything rule of El Al.
Flying on Saturday, and serving non kosher is going against El Al's rules, because (I am sure you hate to hear this) EL AL is the national airline of ISRAEL and ISRAEL is a jewish state.
I have news for you -- I am Reform and have been for almost 50 years.
And, no, El Al does not refuse to fly on Saturdays because it is the national airline of Israel. It does not fly on Saturday because the religious parties made it illegal for it to do so.
Most Israeli Jews do not agree with the Shabbat laws and would get rid of them in a moment if it were politically possible.
Please do not tell me what Israel is. I have a pretty good idea, having lived here for 28 years, served in the Army, gone through three wars, raised two children here, and love the country.
What I do not like is being told that I can not get married by the rabbi of my choice. I can in predominently Christian countries like the US and Canada. Why am I denied this religious freedom in Israel?
I do not like being told that one branch of Judaism is somehow superior to the others. These Orthodox rabbis have to avoid seeing women? Where did that come from? Certainly not the Old Testament -- I never heard of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David or Solomon avoiding looking at them.
Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.
Rabbis have, for thousands of years, interpreted Halacha and made their own rulings. Those rulings constantly change. There are even some ultra-Orthodox nut cases who come to Israel to denounce its very existence.
That is their right. My right is to listen to the rabbis whose interpretations seem to make more sense to me -- and I am sorry to tell you that they are not the Orthodox.
Aug 24, 2007, 6:15 am
#57
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Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.
Aug 24, 2007, 8:17 am
#58
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Give me an "O", Give me an "N", give me an "M", give me an "I"
What does thats Smell (intended) ? OMNI
What does thats Smell (intended) ? OMNI
Aug 24, 2007, 8:27 am
#59
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These 2 Rabbis werent any Rabbis, they are the leaders of 10s of 1000s. I dont really believe at least in Israel that they were subjected to waiting on the reg check-in line and endure what everyone else does. No diferent then any Israeli Govt offical who who also wont go thru that routine.
(snip)
Do you think any time a Pope flys that he goes thru the security and Passport controls as we do? does the Pope wait on Check-in lines? Goes thru TSA? Keep in mind that whatever plane he will be flying on is completely reconfigured in the cabin/s to accomadate him and those flying with him.
Aug 24, 2007, 8:34 am
#60
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
My disgusting hatred? Against Reform Judaism?
I have news for you -- I am Reform and have been for almost 50 years.
And, no, El Al does not refuse to fly on Saturdays because it is the national airline of Israel. It does not fly on Saturday because the religious parties made it illegal for it to do so.
Most Israeli Jews do not agree with the Shabbat laws and would get rid of them in a moment if it were politically possible.
Please do not tell me what Israel is. I have a pretty good idea, having lived here for 28 years, served in the Army, gone through three wars, raised two children here, and love the country.
What I do not like is being told that I can not get married by the rabbi of my choice. I can in predominently Christian countries like the US and Canada. Why am I denied this religious freedom in Israel?
I do not like being told that one branch of Judaism is somehow superior to the others. These Orthodox rabbis have to avoid seeing women? Where did that come from? Certainly not the Old Testament -- I never heard of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David or Solomon avoiding looking at them.
Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.
Rabbis have, for thousands of years, interpreted Halacha and made their own rulings. Those rulings constantly change. There are even some ultra-Orthodox nut cases who come to Israel to denounce its very existence.
That is their right. My right is to listen to the rabbis whose interpretations seem to make more sense to me -- and I am sorry to tell you that they are not the Orthodox.
I have news for you -- I am Reform and have been for almost 50 years.
And, no, El Al does not refuse to fly on Saturdays because it is the national airline of Israel. It does not fly on Saturday because the religious parties made it illegal for it to do so.
Most Israeli Jews do not agree with the Shabbat laws and would get rid of them in a moment if it were politically possible.
Please do not tell me what Israel is. I have a pretty good idea, having lived here for 28 years, served in the Army, gone through three wars, raised two children here, and love the country.
What I do not like is being told that I can not get married by the rabbi of my choice. I can in predominently Christian countries like the US and Canada. Why am I denied this religious freedom in Israel?
I do not like being told that one branch of Judaism is somehow superior to the others. These Orthodox rabbis have to avoid seeing women? Where did that come from? Certainly not the Old Testament -- I never heard of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David or Solomon avoiding looking at them.
Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.
Rabbis have, for thousands of years, interpreted Halacha and made their own rulings. Those rulings constantly change. There are even some ultra-Orthodox nut cases who come to Israel to denounce its very existence.
That is their right. My right is to listen to the rabbis whose interpretations seem to make more sense to me -- and I am sorry to tell you that they are not the Orthodox.
This is an airline forum, not a religous one. Therefore:
I am not going to defend Reform, Orthodox, or Conservative Jewry. Each has its own issues. But lets not be foolish - there is no way the State of Israel is going to please everyones interpetation of the Bible.
However you need to open up a bit and try and understand why someone would want to be Conservative or Orthodox. Each denomination has roots, meaning, and traditions. (more on this off the forum).
It appears that these ultra-Orthodox rabbi's prefer to aviod conversing with women other then their wifes. They prefer not to watch TV which is full of women dressed in immodest attire; full of immoral content, and not exactly mind stimulating (If you watch TV like me, you can at least understand that!). They seem to want to keep their minds focused on one thing - following the Bible and it's laws to the best they can interpet.
Are they right? I am not qualified to answer that. Some say yes, some say no. What I do know is that I try to respect their lifestyle the same way I respect the lifestlye of a Conservative Rabbi.
I was not sitting in First Class that day, and nor were you. Supporters of these Rabbi's bought all the FC seats, in order that people like us should not have reason to complain.
So what they don't want to watch TV? So what they are uncomfortable conversing with women who are not their wifes?! It doesn't bother me or my wife, and it shouldn't bother you! No harm done!
When I noticed this topic I started from the begining. I actually though that forum members would congratulate El-Al for finally being accomodating to paying customers!!
