OT: ISO Israeli Lawyer to sue AA
Jan 24, 2023, 11:06 am
#1
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OT: ISO Israeli Lawyer to sue AA
Hello, Not Elal related but I think that this is the best place to ask. Anyone able to recommend an Israeli lawyer to file a lawsuit AGAINST an airline, in Israel. Having a very hard time finding one online. Lots of commercial lawyers but none that deal with passengers wishing to claim under Israeli Aviation Services Law. Any leads greatly appreciated. Thanks
Jan 24, 2023, 4:23 pm
#2
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Hello, Not Elal related but I think that this is the best place to ask. Anyone able to recommend an Israeli lawyer to file a lawsuit AGAINST an airline, in Israel. Having a very hard time finding one online. Lots of commercial lawyers but none that deal with passengers wishing to claim under Israeli Aviation Services Law. Any leads greatly appreciated. Thanks
Jan 24, 2023, 4:39 pm
#3
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Yes. Currently at the point where AA acknowledge they are liable to pay a hell of a lot of money, however, these claims must be made in court. So while they've already acknowledged that they know they'll lose in court, they are refusing to settle.
Meaning, I need a lawyer and finding it very hard to find one
Meaning, I need a lawyer and finding it very hard to find one
Jan 24, 2023, 4:59 pm
#4
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Yes. Currently at the point where AA acknowledge they are liable to pay a hell of a lot of money, however, these claims must be made in court. So while they've already acknowledged that they know they'll lose in court, they are refusing to settle.
Meaning, I need a lawyer and finding it very hard to find one
Meaning, I need a lawyer and finding it very hard to find one
More information about filing a DOT Aviation Consumer Complaint here:
https://www.transportation.gov/airco...umer-complaint
Jan 24, 2023, 5:05 pm
#5
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It's not quite clear cut. To put it breifly:
Israeli Law states (to paraphrase multiple sections) courts can award up to NIS 10,000 for assistance not being provided such as lack of hotels or food or the like. AA admired they didn't provide those. There are many separate instances where they would be liable for up to NIS 10,000.
So by default if we go to court the judge will award something in my favour as it's clear that they didn't follow the law. How much to be awarded depends on the court.
The issue is that even though there is a 100% certainty they will lose in court they will not negotiate a settlement or do anything else unless I take them to court which I am more than happy to do, just need a lawyer.
DOT has no bearing and will not act in a case involving foreign law.
Israeli Law states (to paraphrase multiple sections) courts can award up to NIS 10,000 for assistance not being provided such as lack of hotels or food or the like. AA admired they didn't provide those. There are many separate instances where they would be liable for up to NIS 10,000.
So by default if we go to court the judge will award something in my favour as it's clear that they didn't follow the law. How much to be awarded depends on the court.
The issue is that even though there is a 100% certainty they will lose in court they will not negotiate a settlement or do anything else unless I take them to court which I am more than happy to do, just need a lawyer.
DOT has no bearing and will not act in a case involving foreign law.
Jan 24, 2023, 5:56 pm
#6
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It's not quite clear cut. To put it breifly:
Israeli Law states (to paraphrase multiple sections) courts can award up to NIS 10,000 for assistance not being provided such as lack of hotels or food or the like. AA admired they didn't provide those. There are many separate instances where they would be liable for up to NIS 10,000.
So by default if we go to court the judge will award something in my favour as it's clear that they didn't follow the law. How much to be awarded depends on the court.
The issue is that even though there is a 100% certainty they will lose in court they will not negotiate a settlement or do anything else unless I take them to court which I am more than happy to do, just need a lawyer.
DOT has no bearing and will not act in a case involving foreign law.
Israeli Law states (to paraphrase multiple sections) courts can award up to NIS 10,000 for assistance not being provided such as lack of hotels or food or the like. AA admired they didn't provide those. There are many separate instances where they would be liable for up to NIS 10,000.
So by default if we go to court the judge will award something in my favour as it's clear that they didn't follow the law. How much to be awarded depends on the court.
The issue is that even though there is a 100% certainty they will lose in court they will not negotiate a settlement or do anything else unless I take them to court which I am more than happy to do, just need a lawyer.
DOT has no bearing and will not act in a case involving foreign law.
Is there some reason why you did not book your own hotel during the BDA diversion, and then seek reimbursement for that from either AA or your own travel insurance (if you had any for that trip).
Have you looked at AA's Contract of Carriage to determine what its obligations are in cases of diversion? If AA violated its own contract, DOT might be very interested in that.
I see that 10,000 NIS is roughly equivalent to $2,975 USD. How much do you realistically expect to be able to recover from a lawsuit, and how much are you willing to pay an Israeli lawyer -- if you can find one -- for the chance of achieving such a recovery? As the old saying goes, "Sometimes the juice ain't worth the squeeze."
Jan 24, 2023, 6:10 pm
#7
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I see from the other thread that you did file a complaint with DOT, AA responded, and you responded with additional information. Have you heard anything from DOT since? Even for violations of U.S. law, DOT cannot order AA to compensate a passenger; it can only fine AA, if it deems it appropriate to do so. But by forwarding a complaint to an airline employee tasked with responding to DOT complaints, the passenger sometimes ends up with a more favorable outcome.
Is there some reason why you did not book your own hotel during the BDA diversion, and then seek reimbursement for that from either AA or your own travel insurance (if you had any for that trip).
Have you looked at AA's Contract of Carriage to determine what its obligations are in cases of diversion? If AA violated its own contract, DOT might be very interested in that.
I see that 10,000 NIS is roughly equivalent to $2,975 USD. How much do you realistically expect to be able to recover from a lawsuit, and how much are you willing to pay an Israeli lawyer -- if you can find one -- for the chance of achieving such a recovery? As the old saying goes, "Sometimes the juice ain't worth the squeeze."
Is there some reason why you did not book your own hotel during the BDA diversion, and then seek reimbursement for that from either AA or your own travel insurance (if you had any for that trip).
Have you looked at AA's Contract of Carriage to determine what its obligations are in cases of diversion? If AA violated its own contract, DOT might be very interested in that.
I see that 10,000 NIS is roughly equivalent to $2,975 USD. How much do you realistically expect to be able to recover from a lawsuit, and how much are you willing to pay an Israeli lawyer -- if you can find one -- for the chance of achieving such a recovery? As the old saying goes, "Sometimes the juice ain't worth the squeeze."
Didn't book a hotel room as AA didn't let us out the gate area, not even to the terminal throughout the entire ordeal. AA blamed it on Bermuda, Bermuda put out a press release saying they granted an exemption to the passengers and had COVID testers standing by. I'm inclined to believe a Government with nothing to lose rather than an airline with potentially thousands in accommodation costs.
Couldn't care less about the cost of a lawyer. I have insurance for a significant amount for legal fees even in persuit of compensation. And even still, it's NIS 10,000 per breach of the law. So 10,000 for no food, no accommodation, no communication assistance, failure to pay legally require compensation within 45 days, failure to notify passengers of their rights etc... That's NIS 50,000 right there. (approx $14,000). Although, it could be $1 and it wouldn't change my position. I have nothing to lose (costs insured) and lots to gain
Just need to find a lawyer...
Jan 26, 2023, 8:22 am
#8
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 318
I don't want to repeat myself on this thread as it's not the subject at hand but simply put:
Didn't book a hotel room as AA didn't let us out the gate area, not even to the terminal throughout the entire ordeal. AA blamed it on Bermuda, Bermuda put out a press release saying they granted an exemption to the passengers and had COVID testers standing by. I'm inclined to believe a Government with nothing to lose rather than an airline with potentially thousands in accommodation costs.
Couldn't care less about the cost of a lawyer. I have insurance for a significant amount for legal fees even in persuit of compensation. And even still, it's NIS 10,000 per breach of the law. So 10,000 for no food, no accommodation, no communication assistance, failure to pay legally require compensation within 45 days, failure to notify passengers of their rights etc... That's NIS 50,000 right there. (approx $14,000). Although, it could be $1 and it wouldn't change my position. I have nothing to lose (costs insured) and lots to gain
Just need to find a lawyer...
Didn't book a hotel room as AA didn't let us out the gate area, not even to the terminal throughout the entire ordeal. AA blamed it on Bermuda, Bermuda put out a press release saying they granted an exemption to the passengers and had COVID testers standing by. I'm inclined to believe a Government with nothing to lose rather than an airline with potentially thousands in accommodation costs.
Couldn't care less about the cost of a lawyer. I have insurance for a significant amount for legal fees even in persuit of compensation. And even still, it's NIS 10,000 per breach of the law. So 10,000 for no food, no accommodation, no communication assistance, failure to pay legally require compensation within 45 days, failure to notify passengers of their rights etc... That's NIS 50,000 right there. (approx $14,000). Although, it could be $1 and it wouldn't change my position. I have nothing to lose (costs insured) and lots to gain
Just need to find a lawyer...
I get that response alot when I was looking for a lawyer myself (not in Israel), the max they felt theyd end up with didnt justify the time and effort theyd need to put into it, a couple did say theyd get it in motion but werent willing to do anything more and said they were hoping for a settlement which was gonna be alot less then if we went into court
1 case DH and I were on a SN flight that went MX and CXed @ TLV SN was willing to compensate according to EU261 but Israeli Law was alittle over $200 more they said EU or nothing we took the EU261 since a lawyer would have taken 33% leaving us almost at the EU amount anyways. I tried hard to get The Israeli amount but in the end it wasnt worth it, as it would have cost us more out of pocket.
Sorry to hear what you went thru,no one should have to have endured that but people have to stop looking at the airlines as very deep pocketed companies that I rack over the coals, yea they do that to us but as the saying goes 'not everything in life is fair'.
Are you aware of any cases where someone sued an airline in Israel for what you want to and won and got paid the full amount?
Jan 26, 2023, 9:22 am
#9
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Posts: 501
"Just need to find a lawyer." better put is I need to find a lawyer who agrees with my assessment. Even if a lawyer will agree with you they will try to figure out the max the award will get and how much time it will take from them, so even if the NIS 50K is correct after figuring the amount of time and length it just not might not be worth their time and effort.
I get that response alot when I was looking for a lawyer myself (not in Israel), the max they felt theyd end up with didnt justify the time and effort theyd need to put into it, a couple did say theyd get it in motion but werent willing to do anything more and said they were hoping for a settlement which was gonna be alot less then if we went into court
1 case DH and I were on a SN flight that went MX and CXed @ TLV SN was willing to compensate according to EU261 but Israeli Law was alittle over $200 more they said EU or nothing we took the EU261 since a lawyer would have taken 33% leaving us almost at the EU amount anyways. I tried hard to get The Israeli amount but in the end it wasnt worth it, as it would have cost us more out of pocket.
Sorry to hear what you went thru,no one should have to have endured that but people have to stop looking at the airlines as very deep pocketed companies that I rack over the coals, yea they do that to us but as the saying goes 'not everything in life is fair'.
Are you aware of any cases where someone sued an airline in Israel for what you want to and won and got paid the full amount?
I get that response alot when I was looking for a lawyer myself (not in Israel), the max they felt theyd end up with didnt justify the time and effort theyd need to put into it, a couple did say theyd get it in motion but werent willing to do anything more and said they were hoping for a settlement which was gonna be alot less then if we went into court
1 case DH and I were on a SN flight that went MX and CXed @ TLV SN was willing to compensate according to EU261 but Israeli Law was alittle over $200 more they said EU or nothing we took the EU261 since a lawyer would have taken 33% leaving us almost at the EU amount anyways. I tried hard to get The Israeli amount but in the end it wasnt worth it, as it would have cost us more out of pocket.
Sorry to hear what you went thru,no one should have to have endured that but people have to stop looking at the airlines as very deep pocketed companies that I rack over the coals, yea they do that to us but as the saying goes 'not everything in life is fair'.
Are you aware of any cases where someone sued an airline in Israel for what you want to and won and got paid the full amount?
Jan 26, 2023, 9:41 am
#10
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 318
You are missing the point. At this stage it's more about punishing AA then anything else. As I mentioned I have legal insurance. So, I'm happy to pay up to $50,000 for a lawyer. Even if compensation is only $1,000 that's $1,000 in my pocket because legal fees are essentially free. In short any amount of compensation, regardless of costs incurred, is profit.
Will your ins pay as things move on or do you have to lay out the money and wait to get it back and are you 100% sure no matter the outcome your ins will refund you 100% for what you layout? If like many CDW coverage the CC deals with the car comp and youre out of the pic thats workable, Id hate to have to layout the money and then find out Im not getting it all back and end up with it costing me more then I get. Good Luck and keep us posted please how things go
Jan 26, 2023, 9:45 am
#11
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Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 501
Missed that, but I doubt I or my DH would do it solely to punish AA or whomever. I think its more an emotional issue and sometimes in life things wont be Fair and its best to simply do as we have and STOP using a company or its products unless we have no choice and must do so.
Will your ins pay as things move on or do you have to lay out the money and wait to get it back and are you 100% sure no matter the outcome your ins will refund you 100% for what you layout? If like many CDW coverage the CC deals with the car comp and youre out of the pic thats workable, Id hate to have to layout the money and then find out Im not getting it all back and end up with it costing me more then I get. Good Luck and keep us posted please how things go
Will your ins pay as things move on or do you have to lay out the money and wait to get it back and are you 100% sure no matter the outcome your ins will refund you 100% for what you layout? If like many CDW coverage the CC deals with the car comp and youre out of the pic thats workable, Id hate to have to layout the money and then find out Im not getting it all back and end up with it costing me more then I get. Good Luck and keep us posted please how things go
Jan 27, 2023, 12:30 am
#12
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It is inappropriate for me to name a lawyer on here, but as you are UK based you might find it easier to google UK based Israeli lawyers. There are a number of firms that have a UK presence and vice versa, there is one in particular that is based at the Azreli tower that is well known. Although mainly commercial in their practice they might be able to steer you to one that deals with "travel compensation cases."
Jan 29, 2023, 12:05 am
#13
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As this is specific to AA and unrelated to EL AL, I’ll go ahead and close the thread. Folks are free to PM the OP if you have a recommendation of a lawyer.