El Al to Stop Flying to Toronto, Warsaw and Brussels
Jun 23, 2022, 7:07 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YYZ
Posts: 765
El Al to Stop Flying to Toronto, Warsaw and Brussels
Harretz - El Al to Stop Flying to Toronto, Warsaw and Brussels
El Al Israel Airlines announced that it will no longer fly to Toronto, Warsaw and Brussels starting this October, with the cancellation of the routes coming as part of an optimization of the company's network being undertaken in response to the shortage of planes and pilots due to a labor dispute.
In addition, El Al is expected to announce new lines and lines the renewal of flights to destinations which it has previously serviced, such as Tokyo and Hong Kong.
El Al Israel Airlines announced that it will no longer fly to Toronto, Warsaw and Brussels starting this October, with the cancellation of the routes coming as part of an optimization of the company's network being undertaken in response to the shortage of planes and pilots due to a labor dispute.
In addition, El Al is expected to announce new lines and lines the renewal of flights to destinations which it has previously serviced, such as Tokyo and Hong Kong.
Last edited by yosithezet; Jun 23, 2022 at 10:04 pm Reason: Adjusted per FT rules on copyright.
Jun 23, 2022, 11:45 am
#3
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Zichron Yakov, Israel
Programs: SPG Gold
Posts: 808
On the one hand the article says these routes were cut due to industrial action by the pilots. If so, it makes no sense to open new routes instead, because the pilots will cause just as much problem on those routes. Then the article says the routes were not profitable, despite anecdotal evidence of the flights being regularly full or overbooked. So its hard to know what to believe here.
I think El Al probably has operational issues in Toronto with staff other than the pilots, and since its Canada they cant just shift people from other US cities without some difficulties.
I think El Al probably has operational issues in Toronto with staff other than the pilots, and since its Canada they cant just shift people from other US cities without some difficulties.
Jun 23, 2022, 12:31 pm
#4
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto - YYZ
Programs: Aeroplan/Hilton Gold/Marriott Bonvoy Titanium/Accor/Hyatt Gold Passport
Posts: 5,899
Jun 23, 2022, 7:25 pm
#5
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montréal
Programs: Air Canada, Hyatt
Posts: 1,376
This airline is in such a mess.
They're cutting Toronto and Brussels which have strong demand in all cabins, as well as Warsaw which is an Eastern European tech hub. Makes no sense.
This is yet again more incompetency and piss poor management leading the way.
Good luck restarting Hong Kong and Tokyo in this environment. EL AL has become a sad joke, and it hurts.
They're cutting Toronto and Brussels which have strong demand in all cabins, as well as Warsaw which is an Eastern European tech hub. Makes no sense.
This is yet again more incompetency and piss poor management leading the way.
Good luck restarting Hong Kong and Tokyo in this environment. EL AL has become a sad joke, and it hurts.
Jun 26, 2022, 1:24 pm
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YYZ
Posts: 765
Globes speculates that the Toronto plane is moving on to Toyko.
Anecdotally, I feel like El Al had the frequent YYZ/TLV fliers (especially with the sat.night overnight flight) but AC was getting more tourists- either way I think the demand was there for both airlines.
Lets remember that Air Canada inaugurated their first Dreamliner in their entire fleet with a flight from YYZ-TLV in July 2014- while El Al was still flying the 767 on the same route until Jan 2019!! This includes those periods where El Al was leasing planes to use on the route as well. . Some people I know didnt even know that EL AL was even flying a Dreamliner- but in the end it didn't matter- past experiences for some and somewhat better perceived reputation with AC (versus EL AL, also among Israelis), as with anything, informed their decisions along with a much stronger points program with Aeroplan. It easier to having a connecting flight with the rest of Canada through YYZ with Air Canada as well.
I think the above is just my observation and not at all the reason why this is happening- I think its a bizarre decision, short sighted, and I think other airlines (Air Canada and the Star Alliance) will adjust accordingly. The local reaction to the announcement is quite negative. Even though the airline is not the official airline of the government anymore, it does feel like, in someway, a downgrade in relations.
Interestingly enough I do have a flight booked with them in Oct- wasnt sure I was gonna make it and now considering my options...
I will miss them.
Anecdotally, I feel like El Al had the frequent YYZ/TLV fliers (especially with the sat.night overnight flight) but AC was getting more tourists- either way I think the demand was there for both airlines.
Lets remember that Air Canada inaugurated their first Dreamliner in their entire fleet with a flight from YYZ-TLV in July 2014- while El Al was still flying the 767 on the same route until Jan 2019!! This includes those periods where El Al was leasing planes to use on the route as well. . Some people I know didnt even know that EL AL was even flying a Dreamliner- but in the end it didn't matter- past experiences for some and somewhat better perceived reputation with AC (versus EL AL, also among Israelis), as with anything, informed their decisions along with a much stronger points program with Aeroplan. It easier to having a connecting flight with the rest of Canada through YYZ with Air Canada as well.
I think the above is just my observation and not at all the reason why this is happening- I think its a bizarre decision, short sighted, and I think other airlines (Air Canada and the Star Alliance) will adjust accordingly. The local reaction to the announcement is quite negative. Even though the airline is not the official airline of the government anymore, it does feel like, in someway, a downgrade in relations.
Interestingly enough I do have a flight booked with them in Oct- wasnt sure I was gonna make it and now considering my options...
I will miss them.
Jun 26, 2022, 3:42 pm
#8
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco/Tel Aviv/YYZ
Programs: CO 1K-MM
Posts: 10,762
Globes speculates that the Toronto plane is moving on to Toyko.
Anecdotally, I feel like El Al had the frequent YYZ/TLV fliers (especially with the sat.night overnight flight) but AC was getting more tourists- either way I think the demand was there for both airlines.
Lets remember that Air Canada inaugurated their first Dreamliner in their entire fleet with a flight from YYZ-TLV in July 2014- while El Al was still flying the 767 on the same route until Jan 2019!! This includes those periods where El Al was leasing planes to use on the route as well. . Some people I know didnt even know that EL AL was even flying a Dreamliner- but in the end it didn't matter- past experiences for some and somewhat better perceived reputation with AC (versus EL AL, also among Israelis), as with anything, informed their decisions along with a much stronger points program with Aeroplan. It easier to having a connecting flight with the rest of Canada through YYZ with Air Canada as well.
I think the above is just my observation and not at all the reason why this is happening- I think its a bizarre decision, short sighted, and I think other airlines (Air Canada and the Star Alliance) will adjust accordingly. The local reaction to the announcement is quite negative. Even though the airline is not the official airline of the government anymore, it does feel like, in someway, a downgrade in relations.
Interestingly enough I do have a flight booked with them in Oct- wasnt sure I was gonna make it and now considering my options...
I will miss them.
Anecdotally, I feel like El Al had the frequent YYZ/TLV fliers (especially with the sat.night overnight flight) but AC was getting more tourists- either way I think the demand was there for both airlines.
Lets remember that Air Canada inaugurated their first Dreamliner in their entire fleet with a flight from YYZ-TLV in July 2014- while El Al was still flying the 767 on the same route until Jan 2019!! This includes those periods where El Al was leasing planes to use on the route as well. . Some people I know didnt even know that EL AL was even flying a Dreamliner- but in the end it didn't matter- past experiences for some and somewhat better perceived reputation with AC (versus EL AL, also among Israelis), as with anything, informed their decisions along with a much stronger points program with Aeroplan. It easier to having a connecting flight with the rest of Canada through YYZ with Air Canada as well.
I think the above is just my observation and not at all the reason why this is happening- I think its a bizarre decision, short sighted, and I think other airlines (Air Canada and the Star Alliance) will adjust accordingly. The local reaction to the announcement is quite negative. Even though the airline is not the official airline of the government anymore, it does feel like, in someway, a downgrade in relations.
Interestingly enough I do have a flight booked with them in Oct- wasnt sure I was gonna make it and now considering my options...
I will miss them.
Jun 26, 2022, 10:13 pm
#9
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
El Al wants to see Tel Aviv become a transit hub and not just an O/D. Getting strong connection flow at TLV would probably have a better chance to work out for LY if the Saudis agree with it and if TLV cuts back on the racist profiling. If LY can get the Saudis on board letting LY use Saudi air space a bunch and also work out the transit security re-screening side, then LY should need routes like YYZ in particular but also BRU and WAW to run up the transit passenger flow at TLV.
YYZ, BRU and WAW are all Star Alliance hubs. Is LY working toward a deep relationship with Star Alliance?
YYZ, BRU and WAW are all Star Alliance hubs. Is LY working toward a deep relationship with Star Alliance?
Jun 27, 2022, 6:06 am
#10
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montréal
Programs: Air Canada, Hyatt
Posts: 1,376
El Al wants to see Tel Aviv become a transit hub and not just an O/D. Getting strong connection flow at TLV would probably have a better chance to work out for LY if the Saudis agree with it and if TLV cuts back on the racist profiling. If LY can get the Saudis on board letting LY use Saudi air space a bunch and also work out the transit security re-screening side, then LY should need routes like YYZ in particular but also BRU and WAW to run up the transit passenger flow at TLV.
YYZ, BRU and WAW are all Star Alliance hubs. Is LY working toward a deep relationship with Star Alliance?
YYZ, BRU and WAW are all Star Alliance hubs. Is LY working toward a deep relationship with Star Alliance?
1) It is not LY's job to get Saudi overflight approvals. This is squarely in the hands of the respective foreign ministers. IF and when that happens, it will benefit UAE carriers more than Israeli ones.
2) If you've ever travelled to Ben Gurion airport you'd know that it is not set up for transit / transfer pax. There is literally no mechanism currently in place, other than 1 single "transfer desk" at the top of the ramp down to customs. This "transfer desk" means picking up a phone, letting someone know you are there, waiting 10 - 15 minutes for someone to show up, and then having them escort you through customs and back into the secured area. Not exactly set up for hundreds or thousands of transfer pax every day.
3) LY is definitely not working on a deep relationship with Star Alliance. There is no need for that burden from Star's perspective. The Israel market is already well covered by multiple daily frequencies on their member airlines: A3, AC, AI, LH, LO, LX, MS, OS, SK, SN, UA
There is no alliance that would make sense for LY. They have many more pressing issues to tackle first.
I personally don't believe that these routes are actually losing money or that the financial performance is what motivated their suspension, I think this has more to do with the labour dispute than anything else.
BRU & WAW, LY has a far superior onboard product to their competition. There is plenty of traffic to both of these cities for various reasons, and the Israeli companies generally prefer to send their staff aboard LY aircraft for security / reliability reasons (reliability in case of war, etc)
YYZ has very strong local demand, as well as from other cities like YUL, YOW & cities in the N.E. USA. This would be an easy route for them to restart almost immediately and with very little reputation lost. They have a robust code-share agreement with WestJet to help connect transfer PAX via YYZ, so there really is no reason that this route shouldn't;t be restarted promptly.
It ain't over until the fat lady sings as they say. I want to see what the outcome of the labour dispute will be- I would not be shocked if it results in the re-launch or cancellation of the cancellations.
'Tis all for now.
Jun 27, 2022, 3:22 pm
#11
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Can’t be to TLV without being to Israel; been there, done that.
If the Saudis don’t agree with being pretty open to LY flying over Saudi territory, LY’s desire to see Tel Aviv become a transit hub too — and not so purely dependent upon being an O/D airport — won’t have as great a chance of flying for LY. LY wants that dynamic with flying over Saudi territory to change.
For LY to get strong connection flow at TLV, the way TLV operates would need to change. And LY wants at least some of that to change.
LY is cutting back from three Star Alliance hub airports. Just coincidence that the cuts noted in this thread title are for just airports that happen to only be the primary hubs of Star Alliance carriers?
If the Saudis don’t agree with being pretty open to LY flying over Saudi territory, LY’s desire to see Tel Aviv become a transit hub too — and not so purely dependent upon being an O/D airport — won’t have as great a chance of flying for LY. LY wants that dynamic with flying over Saudi territory to change.
For LY to get strong connection flow at TLV, the way TLV operates would need to change. And LY wants at least some of that to change.
LY is cutting back from three Star Alliance hub airports. Just coincidence that the cuts noted in this thread title are for just airports that happen to only be the primary hubs of Star Alliance carriers?
Jun 27, 2022, 11:12 pm
#12
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montréal
Programs: Air Canada, Hyatt
Posts: 1,376
Can’t be to TLV without being to Israel; been there, done that.
If the Saudis don’t agree with being pretty open to LY flying over Saudi territory, LY’s desire to see Tel Aviv become a transit hub too — and not so purely dependent upon being an O/D airport — won’t have as great a chance of flying for LY. LY wants that dynamic with flying over Saudi territory to change.
For LY to get strong connection flow at TLV, the way TLV operates would need to change. And LY wants at least some of that to change.
LY is cutting back from three Star Alliance hub airports. Just a coincidence that the cuts noted in this thread title are for just airports that happen to only be the primary hubs of Star Alliance carriers?
If the Saudis don’t agree with being pretty open to LY flying over Saudi territory, LY’s desire to see Tel Aviv become a transit hub too — and not so purely dependent upon being an O/D airport — won’t have as great a chance of flying for LY. LY wants that dynamic with flying over Saudi territory to change.
For LY to get strong connection flow at TLV, the way TLV operates would need to change. And LY wants at least some of that to change.
LY is cutting back from three Star Alliance hub airports. Just a coincidence that the cuts noted in this thread title are for just airports that happen to only be the primary hubs of Star Alliance carriers?
As far as the "coincidence" of LY's recent cuts being *A hubs: almost any route they cut could be considered a star alliance hub, I think you are chasing zebras.
Jun 28, 2022, 12:11 am
#13
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I'm not sure what your fascination with TLV & LY becoming a "mini DBX" is, but it'll never happen. There are a million reasons why, but not the least of which is that LY doesn't;t have a network capable of supporting that, and TLV is physically not set up to be a transfer hub.
As far as the "coincidence" of LY's recent cuts being *A hubs: almost any route they cut could be considered a star alliance hub, I think you are chasing zebras.
As far as the "coincidence" of LY's recent cuts being *A hubs: almost any route they cut could be considered a star alliance hub, I think you are chasing zebras.
“Right now El Al serves as an Israeli point of sale; we don’t have the beyond traffic via Israel. We have this opportunity to open up to expand that.” Those aren’t my words, as you can see here:
https://paxex.aero/el-al-growth-ceo-ganancia-exclusive/
Jun 28, 2022, 5:55 am
#14
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto - YYZ
Programs: Aeroplan/Hilton Gold/Marriott Bonvoy Titanium/Accor/Hyatt Gold Passport
Posts: 5,899
It's never about load factors. It's always about revenue return and the almighty dollar/shekel. For LY, obviously YYZ/WAW/BRU are their least profitable routes, and if there is indeed a staffing labour shortage, you cut those very routes. Will YYZ return? Likely at some point.
Jun 28, 2022, 9:07 am
#15
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YYZ
Posts: 765
a couple of updates:
It seems that Ryanair too has decided to drop its route between Tel Aviv and Brussels South Charleroi Airport.
El Al Israel Airlines blames the continuing impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on airline companies for its decision this week to suspend direct service to Toronto.
Additionally from the above article:
Also for YYZ- Jetblue will be flying to (YTZ) Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport soon-El Al also code shares with Jetblue, so might be an option to do a transfer via JFK,EWR,BOS
It seems that Ryanair too has decided to drop its route between Tel Aviv and Brussels South Charleroi Airport.
El Al Israel Airlines blames the continuing impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on airline companies for its decision this week to suspend direct service to Toronto.
Additionally from the above article:
- "A company spokesman in New Jersey, who did not wish his name used, told The CJN on Friday that he didn’t know the specific reason why Toronto is being cut from the El Al schedule as of Oct. 28.
- The spokesman said El Al would certainly “like to stay in Toronto and in the Canadian market.”
- El Al’s Canadian manager said they have not completely given up their landing rights at Toronto’s international airport, just suspended them indefinitely
Also for YYZ- Jetblue will be flying to (YTZ) Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport soon-El Al also code shares with Jetblue, so might be an option to do a transfer via JFK,EWR,BOS