Business impact of EL AL not flying on the Sabbath
Jul 2, 2020, 8:15 am
#16
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Well said, the Jewish community has a history of ingenuity in circumventing the prohibitions ( not that I imagine building an eruv in the sky) there should be a way around this.
Jul 2, 2020, 8:55 am
#17
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ARN
Posts: 3,470
They could work out code-shares with other airline partners so that the partner airline flies the route on Shabbat.
They could use wet-lease for shabbat flights (not the best solution ,as wet lease means it won't really be their product).
They could structure a parent company with two subsidiaries, one that takes the shabbat routes, one that flies the rest of the week. If you segregate the flight crews between the two subsidiaries, that would probably satisfy most objections.
They could sell the company to non-jewish ownership for shabbat - find some block of 15% ownership of the company, and legally structure it that all profits from shabbat flights go to that 15% block and then have that block sold off to non-jewish ownership every shabbat.
They could use wet-lease for shabbat flights (not the best solution ,as wet lease means it won't really be their product).
They could structure a parent company with two subsidiaries, one that takes the shabbat routes, one that flies the rest of the week. If you segregate the flight crews between the two subsidiaries, that would probably satisfy most objections.
They could sell the company to non-jewish ownership for shabbat - find some block of 15% ownership of the company, and legally structure it that all profits from shabbat flights go to that 15% block and then have that block sold off to non-jewish ownership every shabbat.
I was under the impression that they already do wet-lease with SunD'Or on Shabbat?
Sun D'Or is the subsidiary that flies on Shabbat.
I don't think it's the ownership but the workers which is the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Jewish owned hotels in Israel generally rely on Arab workers on Shabbat. Am I mistaken?
Jul 6, 2020, 7:39 pm
#18
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Jul 7, 2020, 1:28 am
#19
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it won't.
This is not a forum for discussing details of the laws of Shabbat, but any entity which is identifiably Jewish cannot under any circumstances be "sold" to non-Jews for the duration of Shabbat under a revenue-splitting arrangement. Such arrangements (or "ingenuity: as you call it) can only be used for entities which are not identifiably Jewish. Somehow, that does seem to be the case with EL AL.
This is not a forum for discussing details of the laws of Shabbat, but any entity which is identifiably Jewish cannot under any circumstances be "sold" to non-Jews for the duration of Shabbat under a revenue-splitting arrangement. Such arrangements (or "ingenuity: as you call it) can only be used for entities which are not identifiably Jewish. Somehow, that does seem to be the case with EL AL.
Jul 7, 2020, 3:37 pm
#20
Join Date: Dec 2002
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It any entity which is identifiably Jewish cannot under any circumstances be "sold" to non-Jews for the duration of Shabbat under a revenue-splitting arrangement. Such arrangements (or "ingenuity: as you call it) can only be used for entities which are not identifiably Jewish.
Jul 7, 2020, 5:12 pm
#21
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ARN
Posts: 3,470
Selling El Al on Shabbat doesn't solve the problem. Employing only Arab pilots and cabin crew to work the Shabbat flights would solve the problem.
Jul 7, 2020, 7:38 pm
#22
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Jul 8, 2020, 1:26 am
#23
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,410
Considering the typical pilot behavior around strikes etc, it sounds like hiring foreign pilots is a good plan irrespective of flying on Shabbat or not...
Jul 8, 2020, 1:43 am
#24
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 229
Jul 8, 2020, 1:48 am
#25
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
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I you would have read my post (which you even quoted) you would have seen that .... everything would go wrong. In short: it just doesn't work! These issues have been discussed for centuries, and there is a vast volume of material on the subject. Just to remind you, what I said was: "any entity which is identifiably Jewish cannot under any circumstances be "sold" to non-Jews for the duration of Shabbat under a revenue-splitting arrangement. Such arrangements (or "ingenuity: as you call it) can only be used for entities which are not identifiably Jewish. Somehow, that does seem to be the case with EL AL."
Jul 8, 2020, 10:06 am
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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they should employ a cadre of Druze and Christian pilots & FA; no problem.
If they do take the opportunity to rid themselves of the excess baggage on the management side, they have a great future ahead of them, barring of course United eating their lunch to north america. I don't really see LY being terribly competitive or effective outside NY. Post-COVID, United will be serving TLV from EWR/ORD/SFO/IAD and in the probably future LAX.. so we'll see.
If they do take the opportunity to rid themselves of the excess baggage on the management side, they have a great future ahead of them, barring of course United eating their lunch to north america. I don't really see LY being terribly competitive or effective outside NY. Post-COVID, United will be serving TLV from EWR/ORD/SFO/IAD and in the probably future LAX.. so we'll see.
Jul 8, 2020, 12:02 pm
#27
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I you would have read my post (which you even quoted) you would have seen that .... everything would go wrong. In short: it just doesn't work! These issues have been discussed for centuries, and there is a vast volume of material on the subject. Just to remind you, what I said was: "any entity which is identifiably Jewish cannot under any circumstances be "sold" to non-Jews for the duration of Shabbat under a revenue-splitting arrangement. Such arrangements (or "ingenuity: as you call it) can only be used for entities which are not identifiably Jewish. Somehow, that does seem to be the case with EL AL."
The beauty of discussing things for centuries is that over those centuries there is evolution and changes in our understandings.
Jul 10, 2020, 2:49 am
#28
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Can you expound on the “somehow”? How would that not change if it were owned by non-Jews? The government could easily sell the airline to non-Jews after a reorganization. Same livery. Same cater. Same everything, but majority shareholder is someone like Berkshire Hathaway or KKR or the Singapore sovereign wealth fund. Would that make a difference?
The beauty of discussing things for centuries is that over those centuries there is evolution and changes in our understandings.
The beauty of discussing things for centuries is that over those centuries there is evolution and changes in our understandings.
Jul 10, 2020, 5:52 am
#29
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel/United States
Posts: 1,234
You raise an interesting question. If the majority shareholders were not Jewish, AND the government did not have a "golden share", AND the majority of the crews and pilots were not Jewish, then there would be room to argue that there would be no problem for the airline to fly on Shabbat. Would that still be EL AL though?
IMO it wouldn’t be ElAl and wouldn’t be an Israeli National airline - which the country NEEDS.Once it’s just someone’s business investment it can be closed,if,not working correctly.