EL AL Religious disaster redux
Nov 20, 2018, 2:39 am
#46
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Whether we like it or not, multiple parties filming in a public area — where the reasonable expectation of privacy is supposedly approaching borderline zero — is par for the course and not considered violent nor even generally abusive, which is why governments and companies and even individuals are doing it so very often and more comprehensively as filming, video storage, and transmission/distribution has gotten so much cheaper and easier than it used to be. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, eh?
Nov 20, 2018, 2:49 am
#47
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
EL AL indeed does continue to pay a heavy price for mismanagement. Unfortunately a very problem in Israeli companies.
However, as far as "ridiculous demands to not fly on Saturdays" are concerned, I think you lack understanding of EL AL's fundamental problem here: Just on that flight alone were 180 people who were Shabbos observant. That is close to 40% of the passenger load. I think that if you were to look at the premium cabins, especially on the TLV-NYC, TLV-LON and some other European routes, you would find an even higher percentage. This applies especially to very heavy frequent fliers. When there was an Orthodox boycott of EL AL over the Shabbos flying issue a few years ago the company lost about $100m as a result. So not flying on Shabbos is a purely commercial decision, whether you like it or not. EL AL just happens to be Jewish-owned. Other airlines are not. If EL AL were to fly on Shabbos a very high proportion of the Orthodox would stop flying with them completely and move to other airlines. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for the company to make up that loss with other sources of income.
However, as far as "ridiculous demands to not fly on Saturdays" are concerned, I think you lack understanding of EL AL's fundamental problem here: Just on that flight alone were 180 people who were Shabbos observant. That is close to 40% of the passenger load. I think that if you were to look at the premium cabins, especially on the TLV-NYC, TLV-LON and some other European routes, you would find an even higher percentage. This applies especially to very heavy frequent fliers. When there was an Orthodox boycott of EL AL over the Shabbos flying issue a few years ago the company lost about $100m as a result. So not flying on Shabbos is a purely commercial decision, whether you like it or not. EL AL just happens to be Jewish-owned. Other airlines are not. If EL AL were to fly on Shabbos a very high proportion of the Orthodox would stop flying with them completely and move to other airlines. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for the company to make up that loss with other sources of income.
Nov 20, 2018, 2:58 am
#48
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,085
While I’m sure there is a commercial driver to the decision on when and even where to fly and not fly ordinarily, most loyal LY flyers for religious reasons have nowhere else to go if wanting to fly directly to/from TLV and wanting any more an Orthodox-observing airline than LY. A de novo commecial, scheduled airline would struggle and be chased down by an existing common carrier. An existing commercial, scheduled common carrier won’t massively change its practices to try to gamble on catering to just the Orthodox. If anything, perhaps using more limited charter operations are the way to make it on routes like NYC-TLV and LON-TLV if trying to cut it so close in terms of timing and wanting an operation fully aligned with one’s own idea of what the priority should be for religious observance.
Nov 20, 2018, 3:10 am
#49
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
The fact that the flight got permission to go back to the gate and didn't is pretty damning in terms of LY's claims.
I heard first-hand accounts and was therefore pretty pissed at how the media gobbled up LY's spin on Saturday night. By this morning, it was clear on Kan that this was no longer the case and LY has lost this one to the truth. They screwed up and went to the easy Israeli scapegoat of haredim, but it backfired and got the "traditional ally" secular Israelis also against them.
LY claimed a police investigation was opened. They have backtracked on that, realizing that there was nothing illegal or abusive about the actions, widely filmed by others, taken by pax. It's gotten ridiculous. A lawsuit will absolutely have merit. The passengers are owed compensation by Israeli law. Now LY may very well pay it which would eliminate one aspect of the lawsuit. Knowing LY, I'm not sure that'll happen. The either side, according to several lawyers and MKs (including a former MK who was on board) is that what the crew did was tantamount to kidnapping under Israeli law.
Many Haredi pax will absolutely fly other airlines. Why is there nowhere else to go? Some focus on only 1 destination which could be NYC (UA, DL), LON (BA, U2, Wizz), Paris (several including AF and U2), BRU (SN), ZRH (LX). For those who focus on multiple, many have already moved to Miles&More or UA/MileagePlus and *A.
I heard first-hand accounts and was therefore pretty pissed at how the media gobbled up LY's spin on Saturday night. By this morning, it was clear on Kan that this was no longer the case and LY has lost this one to the truth. They screwed up and went to the easy Israeli scapegoat of haredim, but it backfired and got the "traditional ally" secular Israelis also against them.
I have seen the video with abusive behaviour of some pax. LY was terribly wrong in the entire situation - but it does not justify such behaviour. Any other airline would have the pax arrested at the gate in ATH. The lawsuit does not stand a chance by the way, despite LY being a sham of an airline.
While I’m sure there is a commercial driver to the decision on when and even where to fly and not fly ordinarily, most loyal LY flyers for religious reasons have nowhere else to go if wanting to fly directly to/from TLV and wanting any more an Orthodox-observing airline than LY. A de novo commecial, scheduled airline would struggle and be chased down by an existing common carrier. An existing commercial, scheduled common carrier won’t massively change its practices to try to gamble on catering to just the Orthodox. If anything, perhaps using more limited charter operations are the way to make it on routes like NYC-TLV and LON-TLV if trying to cut it so close in terms of timing and wanting an operation fully aligned with one’s own idea of what the priority should be for religious observance.
Nov 20, 2018, 3:14 am
#50
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
LY isn’t going to be rendered obsolete by an Orthodox boycott of LY over the Shabbos-flying issue. There just isn’t that much viable O&D competition against LY’s entire network that can be built upon just catering to those willing to boycott over the Shabbos-flying issue. And LY can thus continue to play this game of having its cake and eating it too as and when it really wants to eat it because the Orthodox really don’t have a ton of better choices if wanting to fly an airline that generally doesn’t fly when the Orthodox don’t want the airline to fly.
Nov 20, 2018, 3:26 am
#51
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Many Haredi pax will absolutely fly other airlines. Why is there nowhere else to go? Some focus on only 1 destination which could be NYC (UA, DL), LON (BA, U2, Wizz), Paris (several including AF and U2), BRU (SN), ZRH (LX). For those who focus on multiple, many have already moved to Miles&More or UA/MileagePlus and *A.
Nov 20, 2018, 4:06 am
#52
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: IN, US
Programs: Mariott SE, HH, SPG SE, LT S, 9W BP
Posts: 63
Flying another carrier is an option, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that those other carriers are going to generally be any more likely to cater to the religious needs of the Orthodox than LY. And if it’s a UA or DL flight, the possible flying armed guards may act out or encoruage more aggressive flight crew behavior in the face of protest than LY armed guards who may be more religiously empathetic than the typical US DHS employee groomed on paranoia about passengers. The armed guards on BA and AF wouldn’t be as much of a concern, but then again LY passengers would be dealing with potential witness testimony biased in favor of the flight crew too.
Nov 20, 2018, 4:10 am
#53
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,085
None of the above mentioned carriers are any more likely to observe all the religious observance needs of Haredim than LY. Flying another carrier is an option, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that those other carriers are going to generally be any more likely to cater to the religious needs of the Orthodox than LY.
Nov 20, 2018, 5:16 am
#54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London uk
Programs: *A Gold, BA Silver, Avis President, Hertz President circle
Posts: 2,804
None of the above mentioned carriers are any more likely to observe all the religious observance needs of Haredim than LY. Flying another carrier is an option, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that those other carriers are going to generally be any more likely to cater to the religious needs of the Orthodox than LY. And if it’s a UA or DL flight, the possible flying armed guards may act out or encoruage more aggressive flight crew behavior in the face of protest than LY armed guards who may be more religiously empathetic than the typical US DHS employee groomed on paranoia about passengers. The armed guards on BA and AF wouldn’t be as much of a concern, but then again LY passengers would be dealing with potential witness testimony biased in favor of the flight crew too.
There is also no need for other non-Jewish carriers not to fly on shabbat.
Nov 20, 2018, 5:18 am
#55
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
LY claimed there was violent passenger behavior. And you’re claiming that filming by multiple people in a public area is violence? I don’t know about you, but I expect large corporate organizations and governments to be called out on their attempts to fool the public with official lies and obfuscation. Did LY mislead the public when it was talking about the violent passenger behavior on this flight?
Whether we like it or not, multiple parties filming in a public area — where the reasonable expectation of privacy is supposedly approaching borderline zero — is par for the course and not considered violent nor even generally abusive, which is why governments and companies and even individuals are doing it so very often and more comprehensively as filming, video storage, and transmission/distribution has gotten so much cheaper and easier than it used to be. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, eh?
Nov 20, 2018, 5:23 am
#56
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
EL AL indeed does continue to pay a heavy price for mismanagement. Unfortunately a very well known problem in Israeli companies.
However, as far as "ridiculous demands to not fly on Saturdays" are concerned, I think you lack understanding of EL AL's fundamental problem here: Just on that flight alone were 180 people who were Shabbos observant. That is close to 40% of the passenger load. I think that if you were to look at the premium cabins, especially on the TLV-NYC, TLV-LON and some other European routes, you would find an even higher percentage. This applies especially to very heavy frequent fliers. When there was an Orthodox boycott of EL AL over the Shabbos flying issue a few years ago the company lost about $100m as a result. So not flying on Shabbos is a purely commercial decision, whether you like it or not. EL AL just happens to be Jewish-owned. Other airlines are not. If EL AL were to fly on Shabbos a very high proportion of the Orthodox would stop flying with them completely and move to other airlines. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for the company to make up that loss with other sources of income.
However, as far as "ridiculous demands to not fly on Saturdays" are concerned, I think you lack understanding of EL AL's fundamental problem here: Just on that flight alone were 180 people who were Shabbos observant. That is close to 40% of the passenger load. I think that if you were to look at the premium cabins, especially on the TLV-NYC, TLV-LON and some other European routes, you would find an even higher percentage. This applies especially to very heavy frequent fliers. When there was an Orthodox boycott of EL AL over the Shabbos flying issue a few years ago the company lost about $100m as a result. So not flying on Shabbos is a purely commercial decision, whether you like it or not. EL AL just happens to be Jewish-owned. Other airlines are not. If EL AL were to fly on Shabbos a very high proportion of the Orthodox would stop flying with them completely and move to other airlines. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for the company to make up that loss with other sources of income.
Nov 20, 2018, 5:35 am
#57
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,085
Nov 20, 2018, 5:38 am
#58
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
They should have been offloaded. Captain's decision to keep them on board and take off is plain wrong for multiple reasons. Again - the failure of LY to manage this properly does not constitute an excuse for the abusive behavior of the pax. Both sides were very wrong on this one.
Nov 20, 2018, 6:03 am
#60
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: IN, US
Programs: Mariott SE, HH, SPG SE, LT S, 9W BP
Posts: 63
Both sides were very wrong on this one.