EL AL Religious disaster redux
Nov 18, 2018, 9:18 am
#16
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,085
Oh yes there is! The passengers did! But the EL AL crews relied onh the good old Israeli mantra: Al tid-ag, yihyeh beseder!
Nov 18, 2018, 9:48 am
#17
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Josh, I have to disagree with you. Read the FA comments on Facebook. It took them 5-6 hours to get from the hotel to the airport. There's no way you can prepare for that. And when they left the gate, they did not know they won't be able to land before shabbat. I think ElAl should be commended for how they handled this extraordinary situation. The pax, on the other hand... Not!
Shuly
Shuly
I understand LY cant fly on Fri or Shabbos, but Im sure all they took into consideration was getting their planes back to TLV ASAP so taht they can fly out after Shabbos
Nov 18, 2018, 10:41 am
#18
Join Date: May 2000
Location: HFA
Posts: 1,712
I'm not an ElAl flyer: I avoid them as far as I can. However, in this case, I think they made the right decision. As a passenger, if I have to choose between a canceled flight (which hopefully will fly in 24 hours, who knows) and a flight that diverts to ATH but will get me home with a serious yet reasonable delay (or a weekend in ATH and arrival late on the next day), I'd definitely take the latter.
ElAl put itself in an awkward position when it decided not to fly on the sabbath. There are prices to pay for this decision, and they pop up every once in a while. This is one such instance. Everything considered, I think ElAl was right. Still, this is just a reminder to me why I try never to fly with them.
Shuly
ElAl put itself in an awkward position when it decided not to fly on the sabbath. There are prices to pay for this decision, and they pop up every once in a while. This is one such instance. Everything considered, I think ElAl was right. Still, this is just a reminder to me why I try never to fly with them.
Shuly
Nov 18, 2018, 12:25 pm
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
It is my understanding that international flight regulations require a certain amount of time for crews between flights. I do not know whether "pickup time at hotel" is when the clock stops or when they "checkin at the airport". If the "freeze" time for crew stops at hotel pickup time, it could very well have been if they had picked up the crew 6 hours before flight time they would have been in violation of int'l flight regulations.
Josh, I have to disagree with you. Read the FA comments on Facebook. It took them 5-6 hours to get from the hotel to the airport. There's no way you can prepare for that. And when they left the gate, they did not know they won't be able to land before shabbat. I think ElAl should be commended for how they handled this extraordinary situation. The pax, on the other hand... Not!
Shuly
Shuly
Nov 18, 2018, 11:23 pm
#20
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel/United States
Posts: 1,234
I have no problems with what happened, save this.
on Sept 13, I flew the 002 to Israel. It was a beautiful clear day.However we left JFK an hour late. The reason for this was the late arrival of the crew. There appears to,be a problem with certain crews. If they can’t get to the airport on time during clear weather....
on Sept 13, I flew the 002 to Israel. It was a beautiful clear day.However we left JFK an hour late. The reason for this was the late arrival of the crew. There appears to,be a problem with certain crews. If they can’t get to the airport on time during clear weather....
Nov 19, 2018, 2:33 am
#21
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I have no problems with what happened, save this.
on Sept 13, I flew the 002 to Israel. It was a beautiful clear day.However we left JFK an hour late. The reason for this was the late arrival of the crew. There appears to,be a problem with certain crews. If they can’t get to the airport on time during clear weather....
on Sept 13, I flew the 002 to Israel. It was a beautiful clear day.However we left JFK an hour late. The reason for this was the late arrival of the crew. There appears to,be a problem with certain crews. If they can’t get to the airport on time during clear weather....
If they couldn't leave any earlier, then you cancel the flight because the crew has timed out or whatever you want to call it. Annoying - passengers willing to fly on Shabbat, try to book on partners, all others, fly them motzei shabbat.
How is it that the passengers made it on time? Or crew for all others flights around, scheduled to leave around the same time? I'm sorry but I don't care what the FA wrote - I am willing to bet quite a lot that he/she is lying. There is no way that it was "unforeseen circumstances" that led to them getting there so late.
How is it that the passengers made it on time? Or crew for all others flights around, scheduled to leave around the same time? I'm sorry but I don't care what the FA wrote - I am willing to bet quite a lot that he/she is lying. There is no way that it was "unforeseen circumstances" that led to them getting there so late.
Nov 19, 2018, 3:32 am
#22
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
I blame the fact that the airline puts up its employees in Manhattan and use shared shuttle buses/vans for crew transport to the airport. If the crew members collectively took the train from the city to JFK and EWR or had better positioned hotels for serving the airport on time, the time to get to the airport would be more predictable and they could get there on time more consistently. That and holding crew members more responsible for showing up on time and in good shape for the shared transport vehicles to leave on time. It also might help to have a few crew members on standby and ready to stand in for crew members not ready to fly, but that adds costs and we know LY isn't the most generous carrier around.
I wish LY had an EC 261/2004 type regulation applicable to it like the EU carriers do everywhere and that it would be applicable like it is in some parts of the EU. This notion of "unforeseen circumstances" is used way too much by too many. I've yet to encounter any delay in my millions of miles flying where any crew-related delay was due to truly unforeseen circumstances.
I wish LY had an EC 261/2004 type regulation applicable to it like the EU carriers do everywhere and that it would be applicable like it is in some parts of the EU. This notion of "unforeseen circumstances" is used way too much by too many. I've yet to encounter any delay in my millions of miles flying where any crew-related delay was due to truly unforeseen circumstances.
http://www.tourism-law.co.il/pdf/Avi...icesLawENG.pdf
some correspondents around these parts will tell you it’s even better than the EU regulation
Nov 19, 2018, 3:50 am
#23
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Israel
Programs: Elal Silver, AirCanada Aeroplan, AA AAdvantage, KLM Flying Blue, Continental OnePass, Delta Skymiles
Posts: 529
I blame the fact that the airline puts up its employees in Manhattan and use shared shuttle buses/vans for crew transport to the airport. If the crew members collectively took the train from the city to JFK and EWR or had better positioned hotels for serving the airport on time, the time to get to the airport would be more predictable and they could get there on time more consistently.
Nov 19, 2018, 3:51 am
#24
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
ask and though shalt receive
http://www.tourism-law.co.il/pdf/Avi...icesLawENG.pdf
some correspondents around these parts will tell you it’s even better than the EU regulation
Nov 19, 2018, 3:57 am
#25
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
There are many times where I've been stuck in a car or other automobile headed to JFK or EWR from Manhattan and wished I had just taken rail of sort to get to the airport. And despite being a heavy user of rail from NYC to JFK/EWR, there have been a much smaller percentage of times when I've wished to go the other way when traveling with cabin baggage only.
I don't buy "security" as a reason for flight crew to avoid using public transit to/from NYC.
Nov 19, 2018, 5:12 am
#26
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
Why not? How are they different from any other person that takes public transport to their workplace? Especially in a situation in which public transport is the only way to guarantee them being on time to their job?
Nov 19, 2018, 5:13 am
#27
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
Josh, I have to disagree with you. Read the FA comments on Facebook. It took them 5-6 hours to get from the hotel to the airport. There's no way you can prepare for that. And when they left the gate, they did not know they won't be able to land before shabbat. I think ElAl should be commended for how they handled this extraordinary situation. The pax, on the other hand... Not!
Shuly
Shuly
Nov 19, 2018, 5:54 am
#29
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel/United States
Posts: 1,234
A few comments
a.ElAl staff ate put up at the same hotel Manhattan. They travel in a van, but it is private- no different than a taxi. It is not a shuttle getting other passengers. Unfortunately, as employees of Israel’s airline, they do have a higher security risk than others.
There was a heavy heavy snow on November 15. It was not as had been predicted.ElAl,was not alone. I’m not reasearching for a specific airline or flight but here are some general comments
https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...ht/2010375002/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ts/2009876002/
a.ElAl staff ate put up at the same hotel Manhattan. They travel in a van, but it is private- no different than a taxi. It is not a shuttle getting other passengers. Unfortunately, as employees of Israel’s airline, they do have a higher security risk than others.
There was a heavy heavy snow on November 15. It was not as had been predicted.ElAl,was not alone. I’m not reasearching for a specific airline or flight but here are some general comments
https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...ht/2010375002/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ts/2009876002/
Nov 19, 2018, 6:06 am
#30
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
A few comments
a.ElAl staff ate put up at the same hotel Manhattan. They travel in a van, but it is private- no different than a taxi. It is not a shuttle getting other passengers. Unfortunately, as employees of Israel’s airline, they do have a higher security risk than others.
a.ElAl staff ate put up at the same hotel Manhattan. They travel in a van, but it is private- no different than a taxi. It is not a shuttle getting other passengers. Unfortunately, as employees of Israel’s airline, they do have a higher security risk than others.
How much higher of a risk are they? Keep in mind that Israeli diplomatic personnel (significantly more of a security threat than LY staff) are permitted to use public transportation in NY.