EL AL Religious disaster redux
Nov 19, 2018, 6:50 am
#31
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
There were no violent pax before take-off. There was only deceit from the LY cabin crew. And according to multiple reports, including from reporters who were on board, there was anger but no violence against the FAs. And that anyways happened when the plane was over Europe, not at the gate in JFK. At the gate in JFK, there were no FAs to offload anyone 
According to someone from the flight who saw little LY crew at the gate and the delayed flight, he went to other gates taking off around then to see, and I quote, "where did your crew stay as I'm curious how you made it on time in this weather."
How much higher of a risk are they? Keep in mind that Israeli diplomatic personnel (significantly more of a security threat than LY staff) are permitted to use public transportation in NY.
According to someone from the flight who saw little LY crew at the gate and the delayed flight, he went to other gates taking off around then to see, and I quote, "where did your crew stay as I'm curious how you made it on time in this weather."
How much higher of a risk are they? Keep in mind that Israeli diplomatic personnel (significantly more of a security threat than LY staff) are permitted to use public transportation in NY.
So how come the violent pax were not arrested at the gate in ATH? How come the crew did not take public transport given the weather conditions? Or stayed in a hotel at JFK? How come LY as an airline that caters to customers who stick to the custom of not travelling on Saturday allowed them to board in the first place?
This entire event stinks to high heaven - and both sides are wrong. That's why yours truly, who takes at least 30 legs a year, can count on the palms of my hands the flights he has taken with LY in the last decade.
Nov 19, 2018, 6:51 am
#32
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,084
Oh yes, I almost forgot. Is it not surprising, given that EL AL made such a big deal about violent passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit (amongst other violent deeds) that they have yet to report anyone to the police as they said they would?
Nov 19, 2018, 6:59 am
#33
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
I'm sorry to upset you, but if you had read more recent accounts it would seem that there were no violent passengers, and that the whole story was invented by EL AL in order to cover up their own incompetence. Passengers were repeatedly lied to by the captain and crew, and a major lawsuit has been launched by a number of affected passengers. It looks like this has been a very major PR disaster for EL AL.
Oh yes, I almost forgot. Is it not surprising, given that EL AL made such a big deal about violent passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit (amongst other violent deeds) that they have yet to report anyone to the police as they said they would?
Oh yes, I almost forgot. Is it not surprising, given that EL AL made such a big deal about violent passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit (amongst other violent deeds) that they have yet to report anyone to the police as they said they would?
Nov 19, 2018, 8:18 am
#34
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Israel
Programs: CO OnePass Platinum
Posts: 44
I blame the fact that the airline puts up its employees in Manhattan and use shared shuttle buses/vans for crew transport to the airport. If the crew members collectively took the train from the city to JFK and EWR or had better positioned hotels for serving the airport on time, the time to get to the airport would be more predictable and they could get there on time more consistently. That and holding crew members more responsible for showing up on time and in good shape for the shared transport vehicles to leave on time. It also might help to have a few crew members on standby and ready to stand in for crew members not ready to fly, but that adds costs and we know LY isn't the most generous carrier around.
I wish LY had an EC 261/2004 type regulation applicable to it like the EU carriers do everywhere and that it would be applicable like it is in some parts of the EU. This notion of "unforeseen circumstances" is used way too much by too many. I've yet to encounter any delay in my millions of miles flying where any crew-related delay was due to truly unforeseen circumstances.
I wish LY had an EC 261/2004 type regulation applicable to it like the EU carriers do everywhere and that it would be applicable like it is in some parts of the EU. This notion of "unforeseen circumstances" is used way too much by too many. I've yet to encounter any delay in my millions of miles flying where any crew-related delay was due to truly unforeseen circumstances.
Nov 19, 2018, 8:40 am
#35
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Of cause its best no matter what not to fly out on a Thurs, but thats not always possible.I recently had a Thurs flighgt to ZRH connecting to TLV where there were mx problems. The flight was full of dzs of religous familys yet not 1 was willing to approach the FA as I had saying if we arent airborne by a certain time I wanted off unless you can get Swiss to guarantee they will hold the flight @ ZRH, that was a UA flight
Problem was the last time a few months earlier when we arrived late (UA) the LX flight took off, but that was on a Weds so no problem taking LYs Noon flight. But no way can LYs noon flight be taken on a Fri with Shabbos being 6:40pm and getting to Jerusalem in time. I also knew that at best there were 16 seats for the 2 sat night flights (LX/LY) yet there had to be close to 50 religious people which meant trouble
For some strange reason most folks dont workout the #s time wise and think somehow the plane will make it, in the last case thats what happened we left over an hour late (with a 1:15 layover) yet arrived 15 mins early then we were suppose to . Personally I had a friend who lives in ZRH but wasnt there prepare a place with his friend in case I wasnt able to get out
As for LY its simply they want the religious passengers but dont want to be bound by the religious laws, so its time for the religious to move to other carriers or any LY flight from anywhere where the only way the plane can fly is if the crew was traveling on Shabbos or YT to the airport. But then theyd have to shut up about LY not observing Shabbos/YT, a hint they already dont and people are simply turning their heads so they dont have tom acknowledge it
I fully understand LY they wanted to have the ATH plane in TLV so it could fly out on time Sat night, if the plane stayed in ATH then the donimo affect would cause havac with LYs flights going forward. UA did just that but they have to an extent planes to play with unlike LY. The bigest problem for LY is HONESTY, youd be amazed how being Honest with your customers will carry you. Yea some will buck but most I feel will stick by you as long as youre Honest with them, LY is anything but
Problem was the last time a few months earlier when we arrived late (UA) the LX flight took off, but that was on a Weds so no problem taking LYs Noon flight. But no way can LYs noon flight be taken on a Fri with Shabbos being 6:40pm and getting to Jerusalem in time. I also knew that at best there were 16 seats for the 2 sat night flights (LX/LY) yet there had to be close to 50 religious people which meant trouble
For some strange reason most folks dont workout the #s time wise and think somehow the plane will make it, in the last case thats what happened we left over an hour late (with a 1:15 layover) yet arrived 15 mins early then we were suppose to . Personally I had a friend who lives in ZRH but wasnt there prepare a place with his friend in case I wasnt able to get out
As for LY its simply they want the religious passengers but dont want to be bound by the religious laws, so its time for the religious to move to other carriers or any LY flight from anywhere where the only way the plane can fly is if the crew was traveling on Shabbos or YT to the airport. But then theyd have to shut up about LY not observing Shabbos/YT, a hint they already dont and people are simply turning their heads so they dont have tom acknowledge it
I fully understand LY they wanted to have the ATH plane in TLV so it could fly out on time Sat night, if the plane stayed in ATH then the donimo affect would cause havac with LYs flights going forward. UA did just that but they have to an extent planes to play with unlike LY. The bigest problem for LY is HONESTY, youd be amazed how being Honest with your customers will carry you. Yea some will buck but most I feel will stick by you as long as youre Honest with them, LY is anything but
Nov 19, 2018, 8:41 am
#36
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London uk
Programs: *A Gold, BA Silver, Avis President, Hertz President circle
Posts: 2,804
The PR disaster for ELAL seems to be growing.
Even non religious news websites are coming to terms with ELALs scam and false blame as a cover-up!
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,73....html#autoplay
https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/386904
Even non religious news websites are coming to terms with ELALs scam and false blame as a cover-up!
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,73....html#autoplay
https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/386904
Nov 19, 2018, 8:42 am
#37
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London uk
Programs: *A Gold, BA Silver, Avis President, Hertz President circle
Posts: 2,804
Nov 19, 2018, 8:51 am
#38
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,084
A rather more complete summary of the ATC than the previous post:
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-de...n-return-gate/
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-de...n-return-gate/
Nov 19, 2018, 9:30 am
#39
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
A few comments
a.ElAl staff ate put up at the same hotel Manhattan. They travel in a van, but it is private- no different than a taxi. It is not a shuttle getting other passengers. Unfortunately, as employees of Israel’s airline, they do have a higher security risk than others.
There was a heavy heavy snow on November 15. It was not as had been predicted.ElAl,was not alone. I’m not reasearching for a specific airline or flight but here are some general comments
https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...ht/2010375002/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ts/2009876002/
a.ElAl staff ate put up at the same hotel Manhattan. They travel in a van, but it is private- no different than a taxi. It is not a shuttle getting other passengers. Unfortunately, as employees of Israel’s airline, they do have a higher security risk than others.
There was a heavy heavy snow on November 15. It was not as had been predicted.ElAl,was not alone. I’m not reasearching for a specific airline or flight but here are some general comments
https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...ht/2010375002/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ts/2009876002/
There is no good “security” reason in NYC for LY flight crew not to use public transit when it makes sense.
When road conditions are bad in the area, public transit by LIRR/NJT/Subway/Airtrain is the way to go if you want to minimize extreme variance in times to get to the airport when the weather is bad for driving on the roads.
Nov 19, 2018, 9:34 am
#40
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I have seen the video with abusive behaviour of some pax. LY was terribly wrong in the entire situation - but it does not justify such behaviour. Any other airline would have the pax arrested at the gate in ATH. The lawsuit does not stand a chance by the way, despite LY being a sham of an airline.
LY seems to be as fast and loose with the truth and world of facts as the NYC real estate bluffer who became POTUS.
Nov 19, 2018, 11:48 am
#41
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
I know how LY staff get to and from the NYC airports, and it’s the same way with most foreign airline crews in the US. And they stay in hotels in Manhattan because the crew members don’t want to stay at airport hotels. And they would probably throw a tantrum also about being asked to take public transit.
There is no good “security” reason in NYC for LY flight crew not to use public transit when it makes sense.
When road conditions are bad in the area, public transit by LIRR/NJT/Subway/Airtrain is the way to go if you want to minimize extreme variance in times to get to the airport when the weather is bad for driving on the roads.
Till a carrier starts thinking of its passengers best interests and the crew as well nothing will change, and the next storm on a Thurs will end with the same result, LY doing everything and anything to get its plane back to TLV ASAP so it can be used for a Sat night departure, everything else takes aback seat
Wanted to add, I fully understand LYs thinking and wanting to keep as many flights operating normally as possible and if that plane remained @ ATH then the 001 is pushed off which means its 002 back to TLV on Sun is as well. thats why as long as LY knew they could get the plane on the ground anywhere in Europe before Shabbos started that was its #1 goal and why it wouldnt CX the flight, it doesnt help them with a plane sitting at JFK or wherever it will kill their schedule. But theres no excuse for taking off after saying youre going back to the gate. They could have gone back tell everyone teh bags will stay on board and head to London or wherever its closer to drop off the passengers and then head empty (except for the bags) to TLV Let the passenger decide what they want to do
Last edited by craz; Nov 19, 2018 at 11:53 am
Nov 19, 2018, 1:27 pm
#42
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Ive read that Chabad ATH prepared the meals , brought a sefar torah to then hotel and remained there over Shabos with everyone, commendable. But that supposly was due to LY contacting them, I would assume LY paid them at least for the meals and maybe even paid for their room to run and control everything. If true then why are some sites adding to the story to donate to Chabad ATH? Chabad reached Im sure a financial arrangement with LY and was paid, there is absolutly no need to solicit funds for doing what one is being paid to do. If however they werent paid then Id say 1st those who were stuck there should anti up, but no way should it be used as a funding raising event! I dont believe Chabad ATH was behind the fund raising links. Putting up 'donate links' is just as sleezy as what LY did to those passengers
Nov 19, 2018, 1:38 pm
#43
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London uk
Programs: *A Gold, BA Silver, Avis President, Hertz President circle
Posts: 2,804
We are going OT here, but Chabad Athens like every Chabad house needs donations to survive, so even IF you are correct that for this sabbath they had their costs covered, through such events we learn to appreciate them being there for any Jew (religious or not) anytime, they need to be supported to be able to continue this.
Nov 20, 2018, 1:40 am
#44
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
Surrounding the crew with phones pulled out by itself looks abusive to me. Again - I find both sides wrong in this one. LY continues to pay a heavy price for mismanagement and giving in to ridiculous demands to not fly on Saturdays.
Nov 20, 2018, 2:20 am
#45
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: EL AL Matmid, BA Executive Club GfL, GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,084
However, as far as "ridiculous demands to not fly on Saturdays" are concerned, I think you lack understanding of EL AL's fundamental problem here: Just on that flight alone were 180 people who were Shabbos observant. That is close to 40% of the passenger load. I think that if you were to look at the premium cabins, especially on the TLV-NYC, TLV-LON and some other European routes, you would find an even higher percentage. This applies especially to very heavy frequent fliers. When there was an Orthodox boycott of EL AL over the Shabbos flying issue a few years ago the company lost about $100m as a result. So not flying on Shabbos is a purely commercial decision, whether you like it or not. EL AL just happens to be Jewish-owned. Other airlines are not. If EL AL were to fly on Shabbos a very high proportion of the Orthodox would stop flying with them completely and move to other airlines. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for the company to make up that loss with other sources of income.
Last edited by mikebg; Nov 20, 2018 at 2:55 am
