OT: Ramon airport is being built in the Negev
Jun 3, 2019, 7:15 am
#181
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
The one in the vicinity of Haifa makes no sense at all. It is too close to TLV and will always be affected by the same weather and military conditions. Negev? What wrong with VDA ? It was and still is a valid backup.
Jun 3, 2019, 8:45 am
#182
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
Show one place in Israel with intermodal schedule sync of any kind. There is no system. So that's a lot of "if"s in your sentence that are not backed by the reality and for total travel time of 3-4 hours every 10 minutes have an impact on how many people select their private car as the preferred method of transport.
Either way, it has nothing to do with the *type* of bus being used
It is not a question of cost. It is a question of price. Why would Arkia cut down prices? There is no price war among carriers on TLV/SDV - ETM route. So price reduction means indirect competition from private cars ( since buses have not changed anything in pricing and capacity).
Jun 3, 2019, 9:03 am
#183
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Jerusalem
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 1,281
Jun 3, 2019, 10:11 am
#184
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
Positive ? Let’s see how positive it will be when the traffic is down 30 percent, the route becomes not economically viable and the tax payers money will be poured to sustain it.
Jun 3, 2019, 10:11 am
#185
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
There are numerous newspaper articles in Hebrew (just google it if you like) but basically there are two options: Ramat David airbase (this is the official governmental option, opposed heavily by local residents) or Nevatim airbase (supported heavily by local residents but opposed by the government). In short, the usual Israeli BARDAK
Jun 4, 2019, 1:26 am
#186
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
I really doubt the extra 10s it takes PAX to board makes a big factor to the desire to take the bus, let's agree to disagree on that...
Are you saying Arkia can't maintain the route with these prices? It's anyway just a starting price isn't it?
Jun 4, 2019, 1:34 am
#187
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ARN
Posts: 3,470
In under no circumstance, an intercity bus can load luggage and pax in 2 minutes ( assuming full bus). Yes, since this is Israel and people will shove their bags in any way they like, it will probably take less than 24 minutes, but it is safe to assume 10-15 minutes from pull over to departure. That, plus congestion, plus the general inconvenience of the bus will and already does turn the domestic traffic down. Arkia is now offering tickets + transfer from ETM at 84 NIS, so they seem to realize they have a problem. Now, wait till SDV is shut down and you will see how domestic numbers plummet even further. ETM is an improvement only for international visitors, but is not a justified expenditure, since it, by itself, will not increase incoming tourism significantly, as Eilat does not offer a great level of service and attractions it will continue to cater primarily to Jewish VFR and low cost eastern European tourism. Now it could be that the land vacated by ETH costs more ( I am not even sure about that - I need to see the numbers, on top of that the economic value must include the taxes to be paid in future by developers and properties to be built at the ETH footprint), but it does not make it a sound investment of public funds.
My impression is that you think that the bottleneck is the loading of baggage, but that's not the case. The bottleneck for most buses (airport or city buses) is buying tickets from the driver. That's where the line forms, and that's what determines how fast you can load the bus. In a bus that has baggage compartments under the bus, multiple pax can stove their bags there while others with hand baggage only are in line to buy tickets from the driver. If the bus has baggage racks inside the bus, the passengers will be able to stove their bags there while others behind them are buying tickets. Buying tickets takes more time than stoving bags. So, the only thing that matters is how much time it takes to buy tickets.
Let's assume that it's a full bus with 50 passengers. A few are single travelers, some are couples, and several are families. We're probably talking about a maximum of 20 ticket transactions. Last time that I bought a ticket from the driver for my family on the Ovda Egged bus, it probably took about 20 seconds. Multiply that with 20 transactions, and you've got 6:40.
That number can be cut down if people can buy tickets in advance. I tried to buy tickets in advance at the Eilat bus station, but they refused to sell me any, which is kind of stupid. You can also do things quicker by allowing all passengers with pre-purchased tickets to board through any door. Install machines by the baggage claim belts so that people can buy tickets while they're waiting for their bags, and then allow them to board at any door of their choice. It will take two minutes to load 50 pax.
But I do agree with you that the closure of SDV is a problem.
Jun 4, 2019, 1:42 am
#188
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
That number can be cut down if people can buy tickets in advance. I tried to buy tickets in advance at the Eilat bus station, but they refused to sell me any, which is kind of stupid. You can also do things quicker by allowing all passengers with pre-purchased tickets to board through any door. Install machines by the baggage claim belts so that people can buy tickets while they're waiting for their bags, and then allow them to board at any door of their choice. It will take two minutes to load 50 pax.
Jun 4, 2019, 2:41 am
#190
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
Well, I'll admit that the bus I was on was less than half full, but generally speaking, I can't remember that I've been on any airport bus which took more than 5 minutes to load, and I've been on airport buses hundreds of times. I used to work at ARN, so I've been on those buses a few hundred times.
My impression is that you think that the bottleneck is the loading of baggage, but that's not the case. The bottleneck for most buses (airport or city buses) is buying tickets from the driver. That's where the line forms, and that's what determines how fast you can load the bus. In a bus that has baggage compartments under the bus, multiple pax can stove their bags there while others with hand baggage only are in line to buy tickets from the driver. If the bus has baggage racks inside the bus, the passengers will be able to stove their bags there while others behind them are buying tickets. Buying tickets takes more time than stoving bags. So, the only thing that matters is how much time it takes to buy tickets.
Let's assume that it's a full bus with 50 passengers. A few are single travelers, some are couples, and several are families. We're probably talking about a maximum of 20 ticket transactions. Last time that I bought a ticket from the driver for my family on the Ovda Egged bus, it probably took about 20 seconds. Multiply that with 20 transactions, and you've got 6:40.
That number can be cut down if people can buy tickets in advance. I tried to buy tickets in advance at the Eilat bus station, but they refused to sell me any, which is kind of stupid. You can also do things quicker by allowing all passengers with pre-purchased tickets to board through any door. Install machines by the baggage claim belts so that people can buy tickets while they're waiting for their bags, and then allow them to board at any door of their choice. It will take two minutes to load 50 pax.
But I do agree with you that the closure of SDV is a problem.
My impression is that you think that the bottleneck is the loading of baggage, but that's not the case. The bottleneck for most buses (airport or city buses) is buying tickets from the driver. That's where the line forms, and that's what determines how fast you can load the bus. In a bus that has baggage compartments under the bus, multiple pax can stove their bags there while others with hand baggage only are in line to buy tickets from the driver. If the bus has baggage racks inside the bus, the passengers will be able to stove their bags there while others behind them are buying tickets. Buying tickets takes more time than stoving bags. So, the only thing that matters is how much time it takes to buy tickets.
Let's assume that it's a full bus with 50 passengers. A few are single travelers, some are couples, and several are families. We're probably talking about a maximum of 20 ticket transactions. Last time that I bought a ticket from the driver for my family on the Ovda Egged bus, it probably took about 20 seconds. Multiply that with 20 transactions, and you've got 6:40.
That number can be cut down if people can buy tickets in advance. I tried to buy tickets in advance at the Eilat bus station, but they refused to sell me any, which is kind of stupid. You can also do things quicker by allowing all passengers with pre-purchased tickets to board through any door. Install machines by the baggage claim belts so that people can buy tickets while they're waiting for their bags, and then allow them to board at any door of their choice. It will take two minutes to load 50 pax.
But I do agree with you that the closure of SDV is a problem.
Closure of ETH and SDV together will kill profitability on domestic routes, increase congestion, and hurt Eilat's already not so great economy even further.
Jun 4, 2019, 7:13 am
#191
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Zichron Yakov, Israel
Programs: SPG Gold
Posts: 808
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/662625
Talk of allowing foreign airlines to compete on the TLV-ETM route to lower prices.
Talk of allowing foreign airlines to compete on the TLV-ETM route to lower prices.
Jun 4, 2019, 8:46 am
#192
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Paris, France
Programs: El Al Matmid, Air France Flying Blue Silver
Posts: 2,294
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/662625
Talk of allowing foreign airlines to compete on the TLV-ETM route to lower prices.
Talk of allowing foreign airlines to compete on the TLV-ETM route to lower prices.
The point is that they will certainly leave from BGN and not from SDV
Jun 4, 2019, 11:58 pm
#193
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
While that is true, it's important to remember that traffic is seldom a problem on route 90. The article above claims that traffic was a problem during Passover when "many people" missed their flights due to traffic jams. While that is true for peak travel times, it is also true for peak travel times everywhere else in the world. But people will still come because ... well, it's peak travel time.
What's more interesting is to look at the regular "bread and butter" days that are spread throughout the year.
What's more interesting is to look at the regular "bread and butter" days that are spread throughout the year.
And with trains, it's important to note that at many airports, they don't depart as often as the buses do. I find that I often choose a bus instead of a train simply because buses have more frequent departures. Also, at my local airport, ARN, quite frequently there's some accident or technical problem which leads to the closure of the railroad for several hours, so the reliability of trains is far below the reliability of buses.
It's why I like that TLV has the train to Tel Aviv but also a direct bus to my (old) apartment. CDG has trains but then buses that go to convenient points in Paris. Even EWR has a rail link to Manhattan but also has a direct bus to Port Authority and Times Square.
The weird thing is that bus should have really gone through parts of the center of the city (thinking here of the airport bus I took from Antwerp to BRU that made stops at major tourist areas before heading directly to the airport).
Now, from Jerusalem, you have a train and a bus. Plus the 947 option (with 2 other lines as well), and from EL AL junction, you have either the 5 or walking if you're going to Terminal 1. Not so great for T3, but really fine for T1.
Now, wait till SDV is shut down and you will see how domestic numbers plummet even further. ETM is an improvement only for international visitors, but is not a justified expenditure, since it, by itself, will not increase incoming tourism significantly, as Eilat does not offer a great level of service and attractions it will continue to cater primarily to Jewish VFR and low cost eastern European tourism. Now it could be that the land vacated by ETH costs more ( I am not even sure about that - I need to see the numbers, on top of that the economic value must include the taxes to be paid in future by developers and properties to be built at the ETH footprint), but it does not make it a sound investment of public funds.
You're saying 84 shek is more money than a TLV-Europe flight?
Jun 5, 2019, 1:34 am
#194
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
And now this is just in ( sorry for the Hebrew link): Domestic traffic is now down 25% Y2Y : https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,73...520522,00.html
Jun 5, 2019, 1:41 am
#195
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 461
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/662625
Talk of allowing foreign airlines to compete on the TLV-ETM route to lower prices.
Talk of allowing foreign airlines to compete on the TLV-ETM route to lower prices.