Florida woman sues El Al over gender segregation
Aug 13, 2012, 8:24 am
#1
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Florida woman sues El Al over gender segregation
In today's edition of Haaretz:
Florida woman sues El Al over gender segregation, reports say
Woman says she was forced to change seats to accommodate an ultra-Orthodox man; El Al: Flight attendants are at the service of passengers.
A Florida woman reportedly is suing El Al for gender discrimination after she was forced to change seats to accommodate an ultra-Orthodox man.
Debra Ryder charged that a flight steward moved her to a seat in the back without her prior consent, Israeli media reported. The ultra-Orthodox man had refused to sit next to her and then moved into her aisle seat.
Ryder reportedly filed a lawsuit on Aug. 9 seeking some $12,500 in compensation, including for distress. She had obtained an aisle seat for medical reasons, she told Army Radio.
Ryder's attorney, Orly Erez-Likhovsky of the Israel Religious Action Center, also has sent a letter to El Al demanding that it set and distribute specific instructions to employees on how to act when confronted with such cases, Globes reported.
<snip>
A Florida woman reportedly is suing El Al for gender discrimination after she was forced to change seats to accommodate an ultra-Orthodox man.
Debra Ryder charged that a flight steward moved her to a seat in the back without her prior consent, Israeli media reported. The ultra-Orthodox man had refused to sit next to her and then moved into her aisle seat.
Ryder reportedly filed a lawsuit on Aug. 9 seeking some $12,500 in compensation, including for distress. She had obtained an aisle seat for medical reasons, she told Army Radio.
Ryder's attorney, Orly Erez-Likhovsky of the Israel Religious Action Center, also has sent a letter to El Al demanding that it set and distribute specific instructions to employees on how to act when confronted with such cases, Globes reported.
<snip>
Last edited by TWA884; Aug 13, 2012 at 8:43 am
Aug 13, 2012, 9:31 am
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Aug 13, 2012, 9:34 am
#4
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<facepalm>
Assuming the situation is as the woman claims, this is just absolutely unacceptable. Oy. If this happened, El Al really needs to explain itself and make sure this kind of thing never occurs again.
That being said, the $12,500 claim for damages does strike me as a bit excessive. I would certainly support the woman receiving a full refund for her ticket and some extra compensation thrown in for good measure, but when people start asking for damages for "distress" I tend to get suspicious.... call me a cynic.
Assuming the situation is as the woman claims, this is just absolutely unacceptable. Oy. If this happened, El Al really needs to explain itself and make sure this kind of thing never occurs again.
That being said, the $12,500 claim for damages does strike me as a bit excessive. I would certainly support the woman receiving a full refund for her ticket and some extra compensation thrown in for good measure, but when people start asking for damages for "distress" I tend to get suspicious.... call me a cynic.
Aug 13, 2012, 9:38 am
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If you set aside the personal angle and ot delve into one side being right or wrong (because that is all relative, of course), I think this topic is quite parallel to situations on other airlines that are discussed frequently on FT airline boards. (Just to name a few consistency of airline policy and/or flight crew response: airline removes mom and unruly child; airline does or does not reseat passenger due to POS taking half their seat; forcible/coerced seat reassignment of pax by FA because FA doesn't want to bother getting involved with the seat poacher, etc.)
Aug 13, 2012, 10:01 am
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I didn't read the article and doubt it would cover/answer these questions.
What class was the womens ticket? What class was the mans?
Who had higher status? Who paid more for their seat?
I can see asking for $12k easy. IF she paid full refundable price for a 1st class tix call it $5k then double it, thats $10k and $2k for 'distress isn't bad.
With out know more I agree El Al could have handled it better.
What class was the womens ticket? What class was the mans?
Who had higher status? Who paid more for their seat?
I can see asking for $12k easy. IF she paid full refundable price for a 1st class tix call it $5k then double it, thats $10k and $2k for 'distress isn't bad.
With out know more I agree El Al could have handled it better.
Aug 13, 2012, 3:16 pm
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No, Please educate us as to why the hareidi men refused to move when they were in a public space.
Last edited by yosithezet; Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 am Reason: Fixed quote
Aug 13, 2012, 3:52 pm
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I'd love to hear some details, actually.
Unless it is something along the lines of the guy was wheelchair bound and needed some seat swapping to ensure that his personal care assistant was seated next to him or something similar, then I do believe that El Al is going to have a hell of a time defending itself.
Unless it is something along the lines of the guy was wheelchair bound and needed some seat swapping to ensure that his personal care assistant was seated next to him or something similar, then I do believe that El Al is going to have a hell of a time defending itself.
Aug 13, 2012, 4:01 pm
#11
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I'd love to hear some details, actually.
Unless it is something along the lines of the guy was wheelchair bound and needed some seat swapping to ensure that his personal care assistant was seated next to him or something similar, then I do believe that El Al is going to have a hell of a time defending itself.
Unless it is something along the lines of the guy was wheelchair bound and needed some seat swapping to ensure that his personal care assistant was seated next to him or something similar, then I do believe that El Al is going to have a hell of a time defending itself.
Israel National News:
According to the woman, the Hareidi man had been seated in a center seat, next to a female passenger. Before she got on the plane, the man apparently decided to take her seat, which was more amenable to his needs, as his seatmate was another Hareidi male. When she got on the plane, the woman's attorney told Army Radio. she asked that the man vacate the spot and allow her to sit, but he refused – and he also refused to move when asked to do so by the plane's staff. Instead, a member of the crew asked her to take the man's seat; otherwise they would be unable to take off.
The woman, having no choice, complied, her attorney said, but suffered. The attorney said that the woman had chosen the seat specifically, as it was an aisle seat, giving her easy access to restrooms so she could take medications. In addition, the attorney said, the seat mixup caused her to miss out on getting a vegetarian meal she had ordered.
The woman, having no choice, complied, her attorney said, but suffered. The attorney said that the woman had chosen the seat specifically, as it was an aisle seat, giving her easy access to restrooms so she could take medications. In addition, the attorney said, the seat mixup caused her to miss out on getting a vegetarian meal she had ordered.
Aug 13, 2012, 4:16 pm
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I would have to clarify how coerced the women really was. I don't begrudge the FA for asking the women if she wouldn't mind to switch places. Remember the FA has to take care of the requests of the 'hareidi' as well. Even if he isn't correct. I suspect the women agreed to take the middle seat, and post facto realised that shouldn't have given in so easily. The article is somewhat vague about it. I don't believe any FA would threaten as claimed.
Aug 13, 2012, 4:58 pm
#13
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Have seen this situation many times, and it's always resolved by the FA kindly asking a passenger if they would agree to change seats, something seems odd here.
Aug 13, 2012, 5:06 pm
#14
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Not this topic again 
We dont have all the facts - so lets not all jump to conclusions.
I've seen many airlines make accommodations for family, illness, couples, group trips whatever...it happens. im sure sometimes the reasons are ligit, sometimes not. I dont think El AL is the exception.
At the end of the day, I think everyone can agree that the airline should ensure proper training and educating of their staff on how to deal with the issue with sensitivity for all parties , ensure customers and travel agents book seats appropriately ahead of time, that passengers who are asked to accommodate are done so respectfully.
We dont have all the facts - so lets not all jump to conclusions.
I've seen many airlines make accommodations for family, illness, couples, group trips whatever...it happens. im sure sometimes the reasons are ligit, sometimes not. I dont think El AL is the exception.
At the end of the day, I think everyone can agree that the airline should ensure proper training and educating of their staff on how to deal with the issue with sensitivity for all parties , ensure customers and travel agents book seats appropriately ahead of time, that passengers who are asked to accommodate are done so respectfully.
Last edited by yosithezet; Aug 14, 2012 at 7:10 am Reason: Comment on moderation removed
Aug 13, 2012, 5:40 pm
#15
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It's really difficult to say anything based upon a newspaper article. However, I did find some additional information about this event from Globes, the Jerusalem Post, and the article quoted by TWA884 from Israel National News.
It appears that the hareidi man had boarded the airplane before Ms Ryder and was already sitting in her seat when she boarded the plane. Both were apparently economy passengers.
Both Ryder and the FA attempted to tell the hareidi man to move to his own seat, but when he refused, the FA told Ryder to move to the man's middle seat so that the plane could leave on time.
Ryder complied, but sitting in the middle seat meant that it was more difficult for her to take her medication, and the seat switch meant that she never got her vegetarian meal.
My personal impression of this story is that the flight attendant simply reseated Ryder to avoid any delay. There is nothing in any article which indicated that the El Al FA was guilty of "gender discrimination." A flight attendant preparing an airplane for take-off is usually rushing to complete all tasks, and in similar situations FAs will often reseat passengers of both genders just to "get the job done."
Flight attendants do have the right to re-seat passengers if they see the need to do so. The fact that you have a boarding pass with "seat 23C" written on it does not mean that you have a juridical right to sit in seat 23C. Sitting in a specific seat on the airplane is not a human right.
The woman and her attorney claim that she needed an aisle seat for medical reasons. However, that "medical reason" was obviously that she had to get up and take medication during the flight, and doing this from a middle seat would be easier than being forced to bother your seat-mate to get into the aisle. Personally, I don't agree that this is a valid "medical reason" to get an aisle seat.
There are lots of questions which need to be answered before any judge can decide whether this woman is entitled to compensation, such as:
1. It appears that Ryder was one of the last people to board the airplane. Was that the result of her own negligence, or the result of El Al boarding procedures?
2. Did the new seat cause her any real medical problems?
3. Why didn't she get her vegetarian meal? Did she even ask the crew to bring her the special meal?
Bottom line: She apparently got what she had paid for as she was still seated in the economy section of the plane she had a ticket for. While being moved from your assigned seat is unpleasant, the airline still has a right to do that. However, the airline will lose out in goodwill and bad PR, so it may be in the airline's best interest to give her an upgrade voucher or lounge voucher to keep the passenger happy. But NIS 50,000 is far over the top.
It appears that the hareidi man had boarded the airplane before Ms Ryder and was already sitting in her seat when she boarded the plane. Both were apparently economy passengers.
Both Ryder and the FA attempted to tell the hareidi man to move to his own seat, but when he refused, the FA told Ryder to move to the man's middle seat so that the plane could leave on time.
Ryder complied, but sitting in the middle seat meant that it was more difficult for her to take her medication, and the seat switch meant that she never got her vegetarian meal.
My personal impression of this story is that the flight attendant simply reseated Ryder to avoid any delay. There is nothing in any article which indicated that the El Al FA was guilty of "gender discrimination." A flight attendant preparing an airplane for take-off is usually rushing to complete all tasks, and in similar situations FAs will often reseat passengers of both genders just to "get the job done."
Flight attendants do have the right to re-seat passengers if they see the need to do so. The fact that you have a boarding pass with "seat 23C" written on it does not mean that you have a juridical right to sit in seat 23C. Sitting in a specific seat on the airplane is not a human right.
The woman and her attorney claim that she needed an aisle seat for medical reasons. However, that "medical reason" was obviously that she had to get up and take medication during the flight, and doing this from a middle seat would be easier than being forced to bother your seat-mate to get into the aisle. Personally, I don't agree that this is a valid "medical reason" to get an aisle seat.
There are lots of questions which need to be answered before any judge can decide whether this woman is entitled to compensation, such as:
1. It appears that Ryder was one of the last people to board the airplane. Was that the result of her own negligence, or the result of El Al boarding procedures?
2. Did the new seat cause her any real medical problems?
3. Why didn't she get her vegetarian meal? Did she even ask the crew to bring her the special meal?
Bottom line: She apparently got what she had paid for as she was still seated in the economy section of the plane she had a ticket for. While being moved from your assigned seat is unpleasant, the airline still has a right to do that. However, the airline will lose out in goodwill and bad PR, so it may be in the airline's best interest to give her an upgrade voucher or lounge voucher to keep the passenger happy. But NIS 50,000 is far over the top.