flyingfran

I am not yet ready to accept that there are more wheelchairs used in US terminals than Australia or New Zealand. I would like to see the statistics, particularly in terms of statistics that factor in for percentages of population. The US has many more people than either of those two locations.

I am not exceptionally familiar with the cultures of either of those countries, but my admittedly stereotype is that they tend to reward the rugged individual. I am only offering a theory that perhaps the disabled people in your countries are not yet fully empowered to dare to emerge from their homes and travel. Perhaps if they travel they do so by car? Perhaps they feel free to travel domestically by air, but hesitate to make international flights.

I have watched the ADD and airline disability legislation work their way into our system very slowly. The barriers did not disappear overnight, and there are still many disabled people in the US who are afraid to leave there homes because they fear the barriers.

My theory is that, like many disabled people in the US, many residents of your countries do not feel safe to travel via air.

However, there could be a plethora of other reasons why you see more wheelchairs in the US other than there are many more people in the US, or disabled people in the US feel a greater sense of safety. Maybe the people in your countries are more healthy. Maybe the disabling chronic diseases of the US do not impact as many people. Maybe people do not live as long, reducing the number of disabilities one can experience before death. Maybe disabled people in your countries are intimidated by people who will look down on them. Maybe more of them are willing to tough out the pain to avoid the scorn.

My point is that you jump to a conclusion without much evidence to support that conclusion. You really have no idea why you saw a string of wheelchairs in US airports, and I really wonder how often you see that. I am rarely on a flight where there is more than one other disabled passenger.

When you reach a conclusion without really investigating the possible causes, or even thinking much about it, you do nothing more than contribute to the ignorance that breeds prejudice. Something like the following faulty enthymeme: A plane full of people should have no more than three disabled passengers. If a plane has more than three disabled passengers some people are pretending to be disabled to avoid walking to their next gate or collect their baggage. I just completed a flight where there were ten people waiting for wheelchairs so - ergo: Seven of those people did not really need those wheelchairs and were just too lazy to walk

And....once having reached that conclusion we can move on to more outrageous assumptions that airlines should have some way of measuring the level of "disability" to determine if the "disability" requires a wheelchair. This puts us in the unique position of measuring the pain of another human being, and no one has figured out how to do that yet. Since physicians who study pain for a entire career cannot do this, I have serious doubts that airlines can do it.

I truly think it best not to speculate on why a person needs a wheelchair. If, indeed someone asks for a chair who does not really require it, I am quite sure he will do it only once.

I certainly respect your freedom to state what you think, but I also reserve the right to question the thinking process that brought you to, what I believe, is an erroneous conclusion.

Because I believe it is an erroneous conclusion, and furthermore, because I may very well be the person you suspect of being too lazy to walk, I take offense, not only at the conclusion, but at the temerity to suggest it in writing on a forum devoted to addressing the needs and concerns of disabled passengers.

Frankly, I have many more important things to do with my life than count the wheelchairs that meet my flights, and I really wonder where it is that you see a line of wheelchairs. In the decade+ that I have had to depend upon a wheelchair, I have never had a wheelchair waiting for me. I wait until the last passenger leaves the plane. Then I wait some more. I talk about the weather, the flight, the destination and any other common interest with the crew of the plane while we wait for the wheelchair. Occasionally I look at photos of grandchildren, admire engagement rings, and talk about great places to eat. I spend lots and lots of time with the crew waiting for the wheelchair.

So, what are you doing hanging around counting wheelchairs when you should be moving on to your gate or baggage claim? If you really know of some terminal where you see wheelchairs lined up, please let me know where it is. It would be worth the price of a ticket just to take a flight where the wheelchair was there when I was ready to leave the plane.

jeffrocowboy

I was waiting for a flight - observing life as it went passed me. Is that allowable?

The most vivid recollection I had was LAX T2, maybe first gate on the left (I do not know numbers), Aug 2008. There were 10 people who left that flight using a wheelchair. Most of the wheelchairs where there waiting for the passengers before the plane disemarked.

I am not trying to state a 'conclusion' was interested in exploring some ideas, and you have provided some.

(I do not a wheelchair, but my partner does use one at airports).

Adelaide_Matthew

Hello all

I seem to have started off a very long series of discussions quite inadvertently. My apologies to those whom I evidently offended by an incautious choice of words.

My point, which seems to have been lost in the subsequent discussion, was that the apparently higher rate of usage of wheelchairs in the US might account for the outsourcing of wheelchair services. In turn, I feel that the outsourcing of wheelchair service leads to a lower standard of service than is experienced in other places.

(The logic runs thus - if it's a relatively small number of wheelchairs overall it is probably efficient to provide that service from their own existing staff; with more then it becomes more efficient to outsource.)

I certainly did not wish to suggest that "unneedy" passengers (and I agree you could never define what that means anyway) were using wheelchairs. I've no idea why there are more - I think it's a great thing though!

At the risk of inflaming discussions further, I should point out that Australia has quite reasonable laws and policies for disabled persons - whilst the US legislation is great (and features some things we can only dream of, like being able to have your wheelchair stored IN the aircraft cabin - what a godsend) we're not too shabby ourselves. So I'm not sure that explains it. In any event, both have a long way to go in my view.

As for my dubious statistics - well, they're not statistics. They're simply personal observations that have occurred to me whilst waiting in aircraft (after all the other passengers have left) for the wheelchairs to arrive, and whilst waiting at boarding gates to pre-board (or post-board, depending on when the wheelchair arrives). But the sample is large enough that I felt able to comment on it: I am pretty confident that the real figures would reveal a much higher percentage of wheelchair assistance users in the US than in Australia.

My original point was really that the outsourced service in the US can be quite variable in quality (to a greater extent than I've observed elsewhere) and on average worse. I think this tallies with flyingfran's observation about always having to wait - thankfully, this is something we experience less in Australia (and elsewhere). I wish that you experienced it less in the US too.

Adelaide_Matthew

I am very saddened to hear this - I genuinely feel that this is an unacceptable situation that results in great hardship for you.

Also, based on your experiences, clearly the problem is even worse than I had appreciated.

Now, we've got a long way to go in Australia too, but I think my mother (who is in the wheelchair) finds the wheelchair ready and waiting the moment the last non-assistance passenger deplanes probably on 80% or more of her flights here.

I put it down, primarily, to the different arrangements - in Australia, it is normal to have (at least one) aisle chair and (often several) airport wheelchairs stored at each gate, and it is the job of the gate agents to provide assistance (supplemented by additional staff and equipment, which should be (and usually are) called for ahead from the aircraft if required).

The system here is far from perfect, and there are problems, but it is the norm here to find the wheelchair(s) ready and waiting at least more often than not. And I think anything less than that is unfair.

Katja

Not all wheelchair service in US airports is out-sourced, and in my limited experience (limited in terms of the number of airports I fly in and out of frequently), when the airline handles passenger transfers, things generally go much better, much as you describe the situation in Australia. For instance at DEN, Frontier has at least one aisle chair at every gate, and Frontier gate agents are trained in using them. United uses airport personnel, and they are pretty consistently late (if they turn up at all).

Something like the Paralympic rugby team coming back to Denver totally throws United for a loop.

LapLap

Unfortunately, in Europe, travellers often find little in the way of help or assistance outside of the binary "wheelchair assistance" vs "no wheelchair assistance".
A back injury let me experience a wide and varied range of disability - from total immobility, to using a wheelchair, to walking with the aid of a rollator, to not being able to manage stairs.
The aiports just can't/won't allow for someone to amble along to the gate and request assistance only with the stairs to the aircraft.

I saw for myself in an airport in Spain (EZ at ALC) how a woman was 'punished' for sparing the airline's money and resources by making her own way to the plane with a pair of crutches. Those who had made a wheelchair request were wheeled through first, then those with children were invited to board, and then those with 'priority tickets'. The woman, who, understandably, had imagined she would be extended the courtesy of being invited to be amongst the first to board was, rather rudely, forced to stand/balance with a scrum pushing behind her.

Basically, anyone who's a little doddery on their feet, or has problems with standing for long periods, or has any difficulties at all in negotiating the moshpit that is modern travel does themselves no favours by making the effort to manage by themselves.

It pains me to say this, but anyone who has any doubts whatsoever as to their capacity for traversing an airport and boarding a plane (and one needs to take into account the times it can go wrong, not just the times it goes right as the airline won't allow you to 'change your mind') is better off requesting the wheelchair. I wish it wasn't so, but the systems in place just don't have the flexibility to assist someone who might need the help in the event that they do.

flyingwheels

Laplap, that isn't my experience. AMS, Faro, Gatwick even Frankfurt and a couple of other EU airports that I can't remember right now, where I've seen others with a mobility problem other than wheelchair usage have all gotten assistance. I did see a couple of cases of 2 different travel parties being assigned to one assistance person but in those cases it didn't bother the outcome of the needed and supplied help (using a truck with lift -which can fit multiple groups just fine and once in the plane, those with for instance crutches can manage themselves again) instead of going up stairs from the tarmac.

Now, one problem can be with the "MIGHT need help". The computer doesn't have a box that says one MIGHT need help. Those individuals should be clear with themselves and the airline/staff. They WILL need help with stairs for instance, but wouldn't need a wheelchair. They WILL need assistance with covering large distances at an airport, but wouldn't need an aislechair to board.

Besides even all of this, the EU has it's own set of regulations in place since last summer. It is pretty clear that airlines need to make suitable and workable accomodations. Unfortunately it's still very unknown to both public and airlines/staff alike. Yep......... Hopefully it'll be one of those things where incidents will become less and less. If one ever runs into it, polity ask for another solution and if need be, politely refer to this regulation. Might be a fluke, but my experience so far is that more airlines and staff are familiar with this regulation at this moment than they were let's say in the 2nd half of 2008.


Katja; just curious, do you happen to know if any of the assistance stuff in the US is ever outsourced to parties with a true medical degree? I'm assuming even if the airline takes care of it themselves or other outsourced parties, at least personal would have to go through some kind of training but it would still be different from having an actual professional there.

flyingfran

I have not done a significant amount of traveling in Europe, but I have never seen a situation where a person using any type of mobility assistance is not boarded first. Generally my experience in Europe has been better than the US. Of course, you have to make sure the GA sees you. One option is to go to the GA and ask where he wants you to be for early boarding. That brings your plight to the attention of the GA, and putting yourself in the proper location makes it more difficult to overlook you.

I do think it is virtually impossible for anyone to estimate what type of help will be required if the disabled person is not sure himself. To make things as simple as possible, airlines generally have three categories. One is can walk to seat and manage stairs, but cannot walk long distances. A second is can walk to seat, but cannot do stairs, and the third is most disabled when a person needs assistance to his seat.

Can you imagine how complicated it would be if they added additional categories including might need assistance depending on length of trip to gate, amount of walking previously done, general feeling of well being on that particular day etc.?

Disabilities are difficult for those who help the disabled as well as the victim. It is often much easier for the helpers to just put you in a wheelchair rather than try to escort you as you struggle along with crutches, canes, or a walker. I do not know why a person would resist this solution unless he is just too proud to accept help.

I agreed to the wheelchair because I was causing my poor husband to travel in terror. He worried every time we had to fly because he feared I would fall, or I would be too slow to reach a gate during a plane change or someone would bump into me. Even when I was still able to walk a little, I used the wheelchair because I felt I needed to be prepared for the worst case scenario. There were a couple of times when I could have made it from one gate to the next because they were side-by-side, but I have no way to know that, and even if it is indicated when you check in online, it can always change.

As for the issue of medical training for wheelchair pushers......are you serious? It is almost universally true for the places where I travel most often that the people who push my wheelchair have no training at all in anything. Some of them cannot even read the signs to verify the gate, location and departure time. I have been delivered to the wrong gate at least 20% of the time because they cannot read. This problem seems to be exceptionally acute in ATL.

They have not even been given instruction in how to manage a wheelchair. I have to tell them when to roll me backwards, and how they need to use the lifts to get the wheelchair over a bump in the jetway. Virtually all the training they get is OJT, and usually no more than one day of OJT. Then they send them out into the world, where we have to train them ourselves.

Medical training? I would settle for someone who was, at least, literate.

flyingwheels

Fran, I'm not talking about 'just' pushing a chair or getting anybody from A to B when talking about possible proper education. I'm more thinking about the situations in where actual 'extra' level help is indicated. Stuff like actually lifting somebody into their seat etc. I'm doubtfull that it would be the standard at a US airport, but honestly can't truely judge on my own limited experience.

I happen to be dependant on the medical knowledge (and lack thereof) of those assisting me in such incidences and always treat all of those individuals as 'I don't know, so I'm going to assume you don't know squat on the medical department'. With paramedics doing that part of the job, it is a lot easier to explain in one or 2 sentences. Most of them don't know the medical specifics about my disability (as would most docs anyway) but because of their overall education they are capable of translating the info I give them into what it all means.

My situation isn't standard, but I can imagine there are enough people out there with other disabilities that can run into (major) negative effects if not being helped out by somebody actually knowing what they are doing.

flyingfran

I understand your situation now. It is my experience that if you require professional medical assistance you either bring your own, or you do not travel. I found myself in that position twice. First it was with my husband and a temporary health issue and then it was with my mother-in-law.

In both cases, they were denied boarding. Once the airline discovered that they could not assist in his transfer from aisle wheelchair to his seat on the plane they denied them the right to fly at all. They said that they were too disabled, and since they did not have crew with medical training, and the transfer could result in injury to them or to one of the crew who might help them they could not permit them to fly.

In the case of my husband, we rented a car. The people at the hospital helped put him in it, and I had family waiting at home to assist with the transfer. In the case of my mother-in-law we hired two CNAs (Certified Nursing Assistant) to fly with her and manage the transfer. These two individuals had CNA certificates, which they "earned" within a 30 day period of OJT in a nursing home. The state law requires that two CNAs be present if a patient cannot assist in his own transfer. Fortunately, these poor people, who really provide the majority of care in today's nursing home, work for only slightly more than minimum wage. It was not extraordinarily expensive, but paying their salaries and plane tickets, in addition to overnight lodging, made the cost of the flight about five times more expensive.

It would be wonderful if an airport had a few trained paramedics who could help people who need extra assistance, but I would be surprised to see that happen, at least within the next two decades.

LapLap

I’m afraid I saw just this situation for myself. The person with the crutches made herself fully visible to the GA and politely and respectfully asked to be boarded first. It was the GA who was rude back and curtly denied her request.

You only need to see this or experience it for yourself the one time. Once you have, you realise that there is no point in taking chances – best to request the wheelchair (and then tick - can manage stairs, can make it to seat, need aisle chair) even if you don’t think you’ll need it, just in case you do.

Most of my flying within Europe is on LCCs (with family in ALC there are few alternatives). This is in no way unusual for anyone who does a significant amount of travelling in Europe.

flyingfran

I just find this shocking. I have generally received more attention in Europe than the US, but my experiences are limited to Paris, London, Milan, Rome Istanbul and Vienna. In all of those cities I was already wheelchair bound, but the staff at each terminal was prompt and efficient. I had absolutely no problem. Clearly if they ignore people on crutches, it is wise to request a wheelchair in advance.

LapLap

The option I bolded is normally covered by the code:
WCHS
I was never able to request this without a wheelchair.

flyingfran

Odd. That is usually what I check. It does not matter however, because when I check any disabled box I get a wheelchair. Most of the places I fly do not have stairs, but when I needed help with stairs at CDG they provided a room on wheels that went to the plane and then lf was elevated to permit us to step directly on to the plane. There was one another person with us and she was using crutches.

flyingwheels

Laplap, I've seen the WCHS being used within our continent. Those using it varied from elderly and people (old and young) using a cain, crutches and such.

I can only state that my experience is the total opposite from your 'when with crutches, forget about assistance'. I'm wondering if you're letting one incident color your overall opinion too much. I'm not saying that the incident you witnessed was right, it simply wasn't. But unfortunately, mistakes do happen. Unless I'm mistaken (and than please correct me!) you are talking about one situation. I don't think it's fair to judge upon that. If I did, I would never fly again or even BE at an airport. Don't get me wrong, I understand all of the fear, hurt and possible physical problems than can come from 'only one' incident. I've had enough of my share of that not to. But I do think it isn't fair to judge on one incident.



Fran; it is not needing actual medical handling. As such, I don't agree with the 'travel with care giver or don't travel at all'. It is a very basic set of extra rules those providing assistance will have to follow when assisting me to prevent some not so nice consequences. I'm convinced there are is a significant group of people out there that just need another form of assistance than the basic 1-2-3 those providing assistance tend to be educated with.

For instance; if a 'normal' wheelchair user gets bumped into a seat during the usage of an aislechair, it's 'only' perhaps an ouch, bump, bruise, whatever. Not great, but no real biggie. There are situations in where this can cause nastier consequences.

Or let's take me as an example. People tend to mean very well, but giving me a 'helping hand' (literally!) is a big risk as it is about 95% sure that by doing that, they will at least dislocate my shoulder. I transfer out of my wheelchair to the aislechair on my own as it is the safest way for me. I explain why, instruct how to position the aislechair, inform that my standing will look wobbly but do not worry as I know what I am doing. Instruct and repeat to NOT give helping hands or try and support my body. I explain why. Paramedics get this right away. Most don't know the syndrome, but can translate the basic info I'll give them to what not to do and why. The not medically educated people on the other hand? Haven't run into one yet that doesn't try to do just what I explained not to do and why. And after getting to the actual seat? Same thing al over again. Now, I'm not the type to be silent. I'm polite, explain, but also am very clear about what I need and what I absolutely do not need and what can be hurtfull or harmfull. Which in most cases saves me of the worst situations at the very last second. It also happens that I have become quite good at dodging those well ment helping hands. The lack of medical knowledge tends to make people unable to truely understand what assistance is needed and what not to do.

But to be honest; I refuse to let those providing assistance and their problem between hearing information and processing it before acting keep me from travelling solo. However, it must be said; the service I tend to run into from paramedics almost always goes above and beyond ^ and I'm very glad we've got the option at multiple of our European airports.


And checking boxes? I don't check them. If I do book with an airline that offers the option online, there simply aren't enough boxes and/or the right boxes. Also I've ran into systems that wont allow me to indicate bringing along both a manual and powerchair. So I simply always call the airline and explain what is needed. Especially with my bodies intolerance of being carried, they like -and need, if you ask me- to have the info up front in the system. Just in case the plane would not be right at the gate but at the tarmac instead. At too many airports they might just want to carry you down the stairs (especially in Europe. We've got paramedics for that job, miss!). I always have them put in the info, whether likely needed or not. Diverting a flight can and does happen and at those moments the info sure does come in handy.