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Worthy of a DOT complaint? (Deaf pax AA reaccommodation fail)

Worthy of a DOT complaint? (Deaf pax AA reaccommodation fail)

Old Mar 18, 2018, 10:39 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by SamOF
I don't know the Air Carrier Access Act well, but I do know that it's generally similar to the ADA. And I can see barely any argument that reseating coach passengers (or downgrading free upgrades) to seat the passengers together wouldn't be a reasonable accommodation.

And you can't just say rebook them on the next flight if they can't sit apartif they would be accommodated but for the covered disability, and could reasonably be accommodated with their disability, then that's that.

For the record, and this comes from someone who rarely agrees to swap seats on planes and gets very, very cranky about it: Anyone who refuses to sit in a middle seat to help the OP sit with her interpreter should be ashamed of themselves.
?it in a middle seat? THEY chose to take the flight even AFTER being told there were not 2 seats together.
What is the REAL issue if they had been separated by a row or across the aisle. Deaf people can AND do fly solo. Wiould we suggest AA ban solo deaf travelers from flying?
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 6:05 am
  #32  
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BUT, we did agree to be booked on the next flight. AND told the GA that as long as the seats were together that was fine. Once we arrived at CLT we found that we had not been re-booked nor were there any seats left at all on the next flight. They could not see any upcoming flights that were available either. This is peak season in MBJ. Basically, our option was these seats, or nothing at all. All I could do was hope there was not an emergency and suck it up.

Do I expect AA to find seats on another airline for me that had two seats together. No, that is not reasonable. Do I think it is reasonable to move people who booked coached tickets with the hope of being upgraded and given my seats, yes I think that would have been a reasonable accommodation. If I had been late to the gate due to issues on my end, I wouldn't be having this conversation.

Yes, deaf people fly all day long. I can guarantee you that if you are ever in an emergency situation that you need to evacuate they will impede your evacuation. That is something that I am not willing to chance which is why I don't fly solo. Which is why I book months in advance to get seats together, note the disability every which way and almost always fly first or biz so there are generally only 2 in a row (me and my translator) so I will not impede other passengers. While it is a nice thought to think we would all work together in case of evacuation, I am sure most passengers will be worried about getting themselves off a plane and not worried about getting me off when I cannot hear instructions. While I do not think deaf people should be banned from flying , I do think they should not be flying solo (probably not a popular opinion, I know)
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 12:02 pm
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by mvoight
?it in a middle seat? THEY chose to take the flight even AFTER being told there were not 2 seats together.
What is the REAL issue if they had been separated by a row or across the aisle. Deaf people can AND do fly solo. Wiould we suggest AA ban solo deaf travelers from flying?
My friend is blind and travels alone with her Seeing Eye Dog so if she can travel solo so can people who are Hard Of Hearing or Deaf. Sure in this situation the OP wants to sit near her husband and I can understand but in these circumstances one must understand when booking the ticket that something like this can occur.

Also someone who is Hard of Hearing or Deaf could point to what they want such as a drink from the magazine. Not to bash the OP but if my Friend who is Blind as well as her Husband travel alone airlines have Braille Safety Cards so can a person who is Hard of Hearing or Deaf.

Now back to the OP I am trying to play devils advocate did the OP just want to sit next to her husband and included the disability to help her case? Or if the OP needs the husband as her interpreter then AA had to have tried to grant this albeit on another flight. Can the OP function without assistance from the flight crew other than to be directed to the lav or in an emergency?

Airlines specifically state that they can deny a passenger who cannot take care of themselves such as a person with a Mental Disability or Dementia who need assistance all the time using the restroom and they cannot function independently that I can understand. Just like at school they cannot give a student with a disability an open note test as it would be unfair to the other students but they can grant them extra time on the test.

So I hope I put this into perspective of what the airline can and can't do. Now this is not to say the OP can't write a letter to investigate the situation with a CRO who handles the Air Carrier Act violations and potential violations.

American could write back and say that the passenger was capable of sitting alone and did not need an interpreter unless the OP can prove that one is necessary. My Cousin is Hard of Hearing ad she wears hearing aides and can drive and flies more than once a year alone and has no problems.

I have even met people who are Deaf who can drive. Now there can be other disabilities such as anxiety disorder or even Autism where the person would need a traveling companion at all times. But as far as I know being Deaf alone does not usually require a traveling companion as per the Air Carrier Act. They can write their requests and operate the IFE system and a lot of them can read lips.

We do not know if the OP has another co existing disability that requires her husband to sit next to her.

Sorry to be so blunt here but the OP is deciding to book with Delta and that is a good choice if her needs will be better met on Delta.

You can comment here OP and other posters as well!
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 12:31 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by jennstv1
I come from the HR world, so ADA came to mind as I deal with that all day long. I did read the Air Carrier Access Act and it did state something to the effect of providing accommodations to the visually and hearing impaired. What would be considered a reasonable accommodation, I do not know.
This is the portion the Congress and the courts tend to make it as ambiguous as possible. The rationale not to define "reasonable accommodation" is to ensure that any accommodations provided can be tailored to the specific disability, rather than being a standard. If "reasonable accommodation" is defined in certain ways, it can be viewed as the set standard.

Turning back to OP's issue - sitting together would not be a reasonable accommodation. While OP is deaf, the deafness did not automatically mean OP can't communicate with others. At the same time, it did not mean an AA personnel can't communicate with OP. Last but not the least - even OP's spouse sat somewhere else, as soon as they were on the same plane, it did not mean the spouse can't move around to interpret for OP.

Bottom line - it was a service issue from AA. It does not worth the effort for a DOT complaint.
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 12:37 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by kb9522
Your insecurity in flying solo is not AAs problem. As long as they adhere to any applicable regulations, and as mentioned before there is no indication they did not, they are under no obligation to honor your seating request. As to your concern about being an impediment in an emergency, in the eyes of the law a FA coming over and assisting is no more risky than a "translator" whose qualifications are not known to the carrier. I know it's not what you want to hear, but that's the way it is.



They weren't given "your" seats.



Your opinion on the subject is irrelevant in a discussion about the carrier's obligations.
I agree with you. First of all you do not "own your seats". You are essentially renting them for the flight. As a side note the OP works in HR and I am sure gets similar types of reports that happen at her work the employer can't grant unreasonable requests at work-American works the same way. They can give away or reassign seats at will just like you can play musical chairs. If I am seated away from my traveling companion then fine so be it. Yes I have low vision and get help to get situated in my seat and shown the nearest lavratory and emergency exits. Sometimes my Depth Perception is off due to the eye drops I use for my Corneal Transplant so getitng through long lines of security can be hard at times which is why I have Pre Check and Global Entry to help with my disability. No one said that having a disability is easy. I have Global Entry and Pre Check because it provides me the necessary accommodation whether I am flying alone or with a companion who has it.

I pay for services that help make my travel easier(note I never said having a disability is easy and does not cost you more). I don't expect a Porsche waiting for me at every gate to take me to the next gate. I just expect the basics that are entitled to me.

I request the Bulkhead Row by Seat Number and it just so happens that on some aircraft its in their Comfort+ or MCE seats and I offer to pay for it but am give it for no extra charge. If I am booted due to a passenger who needs my seat so be it. The airline did their best to accommodate me. I do not expect a First Class seat for Coach prices unless I paid or used miles for it.

What I am drawing here is I do not use my disability to get free upgrades. I am a member of Priority Pass and AMEX Platinum because accessing the lounge helps me to wait in a more confined area. Again I pay for this and to me its worth it. The lounge attendants help me to ensure that I get to my plane and they call for the Cart/Wheelchair Service.

I try to refuse the wheelchair service and just want an attendant to walk me to the lounge because I can walk and I want someone else who really needs it to have access to it but it comes and the wheelchair attendants are gracious and thank me. I tip where gratuities are appreciated.

My point is I do not use my disability to get me compensation where its not due. If I have to pay for better seats then I will. In this situation the OP was downgraded and that can happen but if the OP could not spend the flight not seated next to her husband then she could have opted to take another flight.

If it was so important for them to sit next to each other then why didn't they Preboard(if they did not) and ask the Flight Attendant and Red Coat Agent to help them secure seats together. Or see about downgrading two solo passengers from Business Class etc.

I advocate for my needs and get them met. Perhaps the OP was tired and could have been more firm.

Is AA obligated to compensate them for more than the difference in miles plus some bonus miles no. When the wheelchair was delayed on my AA flight they gave me 10,000 miles after giving feedback Did I expect it? No. I just wanted them to be aware that their third party vendor needs to have more employees.

Do I go up to the agent and say "Hey I have low vision get me first class for free now" No way. Wow I have seen some passengers get all angry because the gate agent could not help them. I find that honey goes a long way in dealing in the Customer Service industry. I have gotten better service because of respecting the poor gate agent who has hoards of complaints.

Booking the flight 9 months in advance you are not the only passenger that does this. Booking early or late for this matter does not guarantee you your seating assignments, that you will be on the same aircraft or if American will be flying the route 9 months or 9 days from today. So when you book you can't predict the weather or mechanical delays.



Just my 2 cents. OP and others can reply to this.

Last edited by danielonn; Mar 19, 2018 at 12:59 pm
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 1:33 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jennstv1
Do I expect AA to find seats on another airline for me that had two seats together. No, that is not reasonable. Do I think it is reasonable to move people who booked coached tickets with the hope of being upgraded and given my seats, yes I think that would have been a reasonable accommodation. If I had been late to the gate due to issues on my end, I wouldn't be having this conversation.

Yes, deaf people fly all day long. I can guarantee you that if you are ever in an emergency situation that you need to evacuate they will impede your evacuation. That is something that I am not willing to chance which is why I don't fly solo.
It doesn't matter why you were late - you were late
By your statement following, there is no requirement that a deaf person travels with another person , so that seems to make it clear that there is no reason for the agent to mess others around to accommodate a late rebooking
You were prepared to chance it, by virtue of fact that you did
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 2:37 pm
  #37  
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Again, I appreciate the feedback. Let me be clear that I did not expect an "upgrade due to my disability". Even though I booked in biz, my husband specifically asked if there was anything available on ANY upcoming flight EVEN in coach that would allow us to sit together and we were told no. Never were any voices raised, nor did we cause a fuss. We asked politely ONE time. I know GA have hard jobs and I am not about to add to their daily stress. Any issues I have I take up with CS once I am home from a trip. I have never held the disability card as a way to get something I am not owed or due. And being in HR, I have never had to even hold the ADA conversation with my employer. They know of my needs and it is a non-issue. My question was if AA had a obligation to put two seats together for me. I think we have surmised the answer is no.
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 5:15 pm
  #38  
 
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I have a major hearing impairment (though I am not to the level of profoundly deaf) and most of the time can't make out much of any announcement over the speakers in either the plane or the terminal unless it is relatively quiet and I'm lucky. It is stressful, especially if a flight is delayed. Are they moving us to a new gate? Is there a further delay? A change of equipment that necessitates new seat assignments? Did they just switch our bag assignments to a different carousel? It is stressful, though there are times when I'm thankful I can turn down my hearing aids and shut off a lot of the noise. I wish there was a subtitling mechanism at airports and on planes.

I don't think your situation quite rises to a violation of the ACA, though it wasn't a great example of proactive service on AA's part.

Is your lip-reading good? I can often get a seatmate to tell me what was just said and have a better chance of understanding because I can see his/her face. So far, that works.

Best of luck in your future travels. Honestly, I think this situation could just as easily arisen on any of the carriers. Deafness is a disability that people can't see and find it easy to forget even after they've been told. (I don't mean that in a negative way -- it is genuinely hard to remember for most people who are hearing. God save me from clients who routinely put their hands in front of their mouths when they speak.)
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 6:38 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by lupine
I have a major hearing impairment (though I am not to the level of profoundly deaf) and most of the time can't make out much of any announcement over the speakers in either the plane or the terminal unless it is relatively quiet and I'm lucky. It is stressful, especially if a flight is delayed. Are they moving us to a new gate? Is there a further delay? A change of equipment that necessitates new seat assignments? Did they just switch our bag assignments to a different carousel? It is stressful, though there are times when I'm thankful I can turn down my hearing aids and shut off a lot of the noise. I wish there was a subtitling mechanism at airports and on planes.

I don't think your situation quite rises to a violation of the ACA, though it wasn't a great example of proactive service on AA's part.

Is your lip-reading good? I can often get a seatmate to tell me what was just said and have a better chance of understanding because I can see his/her face. So far, that works.

Best of luck in your future travels. Honestly, I think this situation could just as easily arisen on any of the carriers. Deafness is a disability that people can't see and find it easy to forget even after they've been told. (I don't mean that in a negative way -- it is genuinely hard to remember for most people who are hearing. God save me from clients who routinely put their hands in front of their mouths when they speak.)

Yes, I can actually read lips pretty well. I just find that people I don't know I can't read as well or not at all. And many people are mumblers and do the dreaded hand in the front of the mouth trick..lol..I do wear hearing aids. They help to an extent with the lip reading. But I cannot hear anything in large buildings such as the airport. Nor any of of announcements. It is easier to just take them out to avoid all the background noise aggravation. I know everyone has told me that I am wrong in my thinking, but I still think it could have been handled better. Just my opinion I know. I am a little more irritated than normal since AA has not bothered to refund me the difference in fare class after over 10 separate requests, nor acknowledged my request at all. Delta has treated me very well in regards to making sure my needs are met when I note it on the reservation. So they will be my new airline from here on out. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond!
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 7:05 pm
  #40  
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For an award ticket, there is no difference in fare between what you paid and how you travelled , so would not expect much of a response

I don't know how it could have been handled better, other than denying you boarding on that flight which you arrived late for and working to get adjacent seats on the next , given that it seems that getting you out despite being late at the gate was unsatisfactory

If you had made it clear that travelling together was necessary, I expect that you would not have been loaded onto the flight
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 7:59 pm
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
It doesn't matter why you were late - you were late
By your statement following, there is no requirement that a deaf person travels with another person , so that seems to make it clear that there is no reason for the agent to mess others around to accommodate a late rebooking
You were prepared to chance it, by virtue of fact that you did
The reasonable accommodation calculus doesn't depend on whether there is a requirement for the person with a disability to have the accommodation.

Do you actually think that all deaf people have the same needs, limitations, and abilities? The logical conclusion of your statement is just wrong.
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 8:01 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
I don't know how it could have been handled better, other than denying you boarding on that flight which you arrived late for and working to get adjacent seats on the next , given that it seems that getting you out despite being late at the gate was unsatisfactory
You realize that the OP clearly stated that she was told she was protected on the next flight, in fact had not been, and it was completely full, right?
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Old Mar 19, 2018, 8:51 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by SamOF
You realize that the OP clearly stated that she was told she was protected on the next flight, in fact had not been, and it was completely full, right?
It is irrelevent to boarding of the flight on which the passenger travelled

The passenger arrived after boarding had commenced and had been offloaded.
The agent was not required to load the passenger onto that flight and only did so after the passengers were aware that they would be separated
If the passengers had a disability which REQUIRED sitting together, then (a) the agent was wrong to let them board and (b) the passenger was wrong in agreeing to sit apart

To the best of my knowledge those with profound deafness are not required to fly with a person to assist them
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Old Mar 20, 2018, 8:28 am
  #44  
 
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OP, I'm eager to hear why you think AA should then boot the two passengers out of biz they upgraded per their own rules, to get you back on well after booking, well after check-in? I mean to be honest, this is how this would be. "Hey mr or mrs, I have to return you back to coach again, and unfortunately since I gave your seats away all that is left is middle seats. So sorry that we took them back and then screwed you over by giving you worse seats than you had to begin with despite the fact you were here on time. I had two people who were just re-booked onto this flight well after booking and check-in was done.

So AA's choice was to punish the people who were there on time per the rules. They would then either have to move more people around to get them their seats back, or worse tell them they are now super-screwed and have awful seats. OR tell the people who they just last minute rebooked onto the flt technically against their own rules, that they are sorry but they can get them on but not together. Keep in mind the people who rebooked you onto it likely weren't even involved in the gate for that flt, so that means someone else re-booked you late onto someone else's full flt.

I'm sorry but seeing the bigger picture, AA did exactly what they should have here.
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Old Mar 20, 2018, 8:49 am
  #45  
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Originally Posted by SpinOn2
OP, I'm eager to hear why you think AA should then boot the two passengers out of biz they upgraded per their own rules, to get you back on well after booking, well after check-in? I mean to be honest, this is how this would be. "Hey mr or mrs, I have to return you back to coach again, and unfortunately since I gave your seats away all that is left is middle seats. So sorry that we took them back and then screwed you over by giving you worse seats than you had to begin with despite the fact you were here on time. I had two people who were just re-booked onto this flight well after booking and check-in was done.

So AA's choice was to punish the people who were there on time per the rules. They would then either have to move more people around to get them their seats back, or worse tell them they are now super-screwed and have awful seats. OR tell the people who they just last minute rebooked onto the flt technically against their own rules, that they are sorry but they can get them on but not together. Keep in mind the people who rebooked you onto it likely weren't even involved in the gate for that flt, so that means someone else re-booked you late onto someone else's full flt.

I'm sorry but seeing the bigger picture, AA did exactly what they should have here.
I agree. They missed their connection and were put onto a new flight which had no biz seats remaining when they arrived,.
They were given the option of sitting in the available seating (not together) or taking a later flight.
As they DID agree to sit apart, then I assume there was no REAL requirement for them to sit together due to the disability. That said, why should AA force other people to switch to a middle seat so they could sit together, or force upgraded customers, who were on time, to downgrade. After the cut off time for being at the gate, I don't see why there would be a DOT complaint for the seating they agreed to. If the disability REQUIRED they sit together, then starting a vacation late should not be part of their decision to get on the flight,
That is why I assumed there was DESIRE to sit together, but not a NEED to do so due to a hearing disability. I have an ex-girlfriend, who after knowing a cruise line did NOT permit emotional support animals, decided she didn't need to bring it........ So, that would seem to indicate the emotional support animal was not a requirement for her.
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