As a follow on from my previous post where I outlined a really simple but authentic pizza dough for those that simply want a "same day" to "mix and go", this is for those happy with a touch more effort and wishing to use a proper biga previous day starter. It is pretty much what they do in Naples. Use 00 Italian flour if you can, but don't worry if you can't. Sorry it hasn't formatted more elegantly. It shows item, grams and percentage.

In summary it shows what you add on the second day to a roughly 400gm biga mix of 100% hydration with a few grams of yeast with what to add the following day to maintain 64% hydration of a total dough of 1000gm. 64%'ish seems to be the accumulated view of a perfect level of water to flour for pizza mix but adjust yourself to what you can handle and like. The more water you can cope with basically the better. I currently use doughballs matured in the fridge for at least a couple of days but often a week or so old. In broad summary the longer it takes to mature the dough the better the taste. The less yeast you use the longer the maturation. Bread is really easy .... if you forget recipes and just get the hang of hydration percentages. If you forget recipes and understand the really easy principles it releases you to experiment with different flours and ingredients to produce loads of different type of breads without stress or strain but bags of fun.

I maintain similar spreadsheets for all my breads including the new bread in the "eating today" forum. I then just make adjustments as I learn and improve.

Poolish / biga is the French or Italian name for a yeast starter made a day or two earlier to develop and improve the taste of bread. It's what gives baguettes their taste and pizza dough it's taste. It is easy and worth the very small amount of effort.

So for four or five pizza balls:

Day 1. Make biga - 200gms water 200 gms flour a few grams say 4 or so of yeast NO Salt ... salt kills yeast. Just mix roughly with a fork .. it doesn't need to be neat and can be lumpy ... no need for any effort. This biga takes a few seconds but improves pizza and all bread exponentially and in my view is nicer than sourdough ie more character but no sour and no palaver with maintaining starters etc. Leave the poolish/biga overnight in your mixing bowl to save extra washing the following day with a hotel shower cap over to keep dust off. Even better, can be done two days ahead with slightly less yeast and allowed to mature and ferment even slower and it'll be even better. All my breads starts with this poolish/biga ie bagels, baguettes, country, etc etc Bread is easy. :)

Day 2 ... or 3 .... Add the rest and mix for 10 minutes by hand or 5 minute or so machine . Put a hotel shower cap over top to protect. When roughly doubled in size, portion into either 5 balls of 200gms (small pizza) or 4 balls of 250gms (big pizza) and put into lightly oiled bowls with lid into the fridge until needed. Use floured surfaces and don't use any other oil except in storage bowls.

If you can use preferably semolina (or if you only have polenta - that'll do) under the final stretch of dough before you top, then this under your dough will stop it sticking and give a better crispness under your pizza in a hot domestic oven to be closer to a hotter pizza oven.



Completed weight 1000
Hydration 64%


Dry 610
Liquid 390

Dry 100.00%
Italian Flour 392 64.30%
Poolish Flour 201 33.00%
Salt 16 2.70%
Total 610

Wet 100.00%
Water 191 49.00%
Poolish Water 199 51.00%
Total 390



Enjoy your pizza and report progress back to the thread. :)

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http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/t...A091CD5298.jpg[/QUOTE]

uk1, let's see you tackle deep dish!

I too suffer from a dough syndrome. Regardless of what I do, what kind of dough I make or use, it never stretches appropriately.

The chances of me going any where near deep dish is at the lower end of the 0% to 1% of the Neapolitan scale ....:D

Hydrate the flour first. In other words mix water and flour with no yeast or salt or anything else and let it stand for 30 minutes. This technique seems underused but adds character.

Then use a higher hydration ie at least 65% and mix it it using the dough hook for longer to stretch the gluten, say 10 minutes at medium using a mixer. Most mix for around 5 minutes. After you have mixed, let it rise in a lower temperatire for longer, this lets the gluten develop better - and then use envelope folding for the final prove. Then, when stretching, take your time and let the gluten rest between stretches ie stretch .... rest .... stretch ... rest .etc. The final stretching should be on the peel.

The combination of these small changes should cure the problem.

Heh, and I'm a New Yorker too! But food is food...

Say, not that I expect that you eat at them, but what are typical toppings at a UK pizza parlo(u)r anyway?

Yes, New York is as close to Neapolitan as US style gets I guess. Personally it's just my own tomato mix, some salami, mozzarella, and normally some red onion with some fresh basil.

Pizza places:


Domino's

Pizza Hut

Papa Johns

.... and possibly the best on a good day and in the right one ...

Pizza Express

Every week I get a slew of pamphlets through the door from home delivery services that offer pizzas and kebabs or pizzas and burgers. I pop them straight into the recycling bin and try not to look at them. The offerings make me feel queasy. Most of the places don't really have a website to speak of.
Here is one of the more successful examples of these homegrown pizza delivery services, they have a chain:
http://topspizza.co.uk/kentishtown/pizzas
Menu is pretty typical and I would say representative of the majority of take out pizzas consumed in the UK.

For those wanting a more "upmarket" experience (which seems to mean more goats cheese and blue cheese in the choices) there's this British chain:
http://www.organicapizzacompany.co.uk/our_menu.php

Thanks for that, uk1. (As an aside, if you ever want to take a break from the sate and bee chiang hiang, New Haven, Connecticut has a good pie too)

Thanks for the links, LapLap. Do you make pizza too?

Not too surprised to see a couple of India-influenced pies, and peri peri would be my first choice.

For the second link, nduja and bresaola? Nice. Though a bit curious as to why the "Americana" is the spicy one!

New Haven pizza is definitely a rival for nyc style. New haven is rectangular and crispy but tender inside, thanks to being cooked in a coal oven.

Posted in error

I keep a sourdough culture and get my favourite flour delivered in a sack, so, yes, I make pizza. My 5 year old can pretty much make it by herself as the dough just needs to be kneaded for about 10 seconds a time at progressively longer intervals - fits nicely with our attention spans :)

Except for Italy, and places saying "au feu du bois" in Nice and Cannes ... and Pizza Express when it first opened in London, I cannot recall eating much pizza out. Almost all of it, including a lot of what I have tasted in Naples is not very good. Pizza is about the dough and the topping should just be embellishment to complement the dough. In my view ;)

I have never had a pizza delivered.

Off to Singapore in a few weeks for an extended stay ... so much looking forward to warm walks and eating at the stalls.

:)

As far as I'm concerned the thinner the base the better and crispier the pizza. The topping should be spread thinly right to the edge.....something I noticed you don't do. :p

I can't be doing with thick base pizza which has become increasingly popular over the years. I'm still mastering the making of them in my wood fired oven however as I'm not a big fan of Pizza it's taking some time.

it is clear you've not ever had a proper pizza if you think the base should be crisp.

One day Grasshopper ... you will experience a real pizza... and then you will understand .....:p

You must be a true traditionalist! You're describing Roman style pizza which has a very, very long history. Apparently, if you use a seed derived oil rather than olive oil you can get an even crisper base.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=klaQZfHwcD8

Love the fact that there are still so many people out there preserving recipes and old ways of making authentic pizzas, pissaldières, cocas, etc. in all their glorious forms.

Yes indeed.....that uk1 needs educatin.

Hail Emperor HIDDIUS!

Emp, you should take all the support and comfort wherever you can get it mate irrespective of it's motive and sauce and whyever it was suggested. GO FOR IT!!!!! ;) :p

Go back further .... StoneAge .... that's authentic mate. Forget Naples and Emperor Caputo and his 00 and all that rubbish.

Anyway .... to you and your and all who miss everything Celtic and Homeland ... have a great one ..

:)



http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...0_2192781b.jpg

This is my idea of what a pizza base should look like.....none of that thick doughy nonsense. I could make two bases out of your one. ^

http://lesleyeats.com/wp-content/upl...8887-Small.jpg

Yes but CRISP? :eek:

Like a Walker's crisp or a cracker! :td:

Don't be daft!

:D

Crisp yes but not hard enough to break my wallies.

Anyway....you stick to your fast food outlet type pizza and I'll stick to the more authentic type. :p

Yes .... I agree. You carry on crunching your authentic pizza stolen from a bloggers website, and I'll carry on chewing mine .. by the way did you make that pizza or paste it from somewhere else. :confused: Your home made pizza seems to have come from a blogger place called "Lesley Eats" whereas my shop bought one was made by me! :eek:

Anyway ... hope your willy and your Upper Molus don't come to no grief over yulytide with all that Bonus Airy Stuff, and I'll carry on eating the muck I eat and continue to try hard to try and not yearn for authentique crispy pizza you 'aven't eaten.

Bonus Knockers Mon Amy!

:D :D

Interesting; most of the pizza I had in Rome (as opposed to elsewhere in Italy) was was labelled "rustica" which was about a substantial fraction of a centimeter thick and sort of a much lighter better version what gets called "sicilian" in NYC.

I've come to see trying to define 'correct' pizza as impossible as trying to define the one truly authentic Mexican cuisine or Cajun gumbo recipe- at this point there have been so many divergence points from the original source material that you should stop worrying about what's correct and just go for what you think tastes good.

I've not been able to stomach Chicago-style deep dish pizza since the swim team years when I was in the pool for four hours a day and needed the calories, but I defend its right to exist. And some of the Pizza Hut- Middle East offerings genuinely scare me, but if that's what people there like, then more power to them. Anything else, I'm generally game to try as long as I can avoid pork & beef as a topping (Haven't eaten either since about 1999). Tuna pizza in Germany wasn't a bad way to try to get some alternative protein in the land of pork sausages.

Just take whatever crust type on hand and cook it properly. I've actually given up on the promising Mellow Mushroom chain over here because their crust always seems to be overly soggy in the middle.

You'll notice earlier in the thread I've been reading about pizza and it's origins. I posted one of the earliest newspaper items I could find originating from Italy to refer to it. I went back through searchable archives to the 1600s. There has been nothing earlier that I found. I also have some decent tomes on flatbreads from around the world. Nothing I see supports the idea that any Romans had what we call pizza before the Neapolitans. Focaccia for example isn't pizza and isn't and has never been thin and crisp.

The closest Rome-wise I could find is that the ancient Romans developed something completely different from pizza called "placenta cake" which is a multi layered crusty doughy crisp desert type thing with layers of dough and honey - almost sounding baclav'ish .... they certainly didn't invent what most would say is pizza. The Greeks came closer to it. In any event, a thin base doesn't mean crisp and crunchy.

Most people that are interested in pizza agree that pizza as we know it was developed in Naples in the late 18th century .... it sounded like what we call plain old marinara ...... but I find it is best not to argue ... no good seems to come of it ...... ;)

.... anyone else who shares my obsession with flatbreads may be interested in "Flatbreads and Flavors: A Baker's Atlas Paperback" by Jeffrey Alford and Naomi Duguid. I can't recommend this more highly.

You must make : AFGHAN SNOWSHOE NAAN !!!

:)

The Uyghurs know a thing or two about quality nan too. The breads are often topped with sesame seeds, and less likely sunflower seeds. If you're ever in Shenzhen or Guangzhou, China, I've got a couple of suggestions.

Thanks.

It's funny you should say that ... there's been a few items recently that has made me start thinking of a visit.

:)

Thanks...

It all boils down to personal taste as there is clearly no hard and fast rules how a pizza base should be. After all the regions of Italy all have their own way of making it so what chance has the rest of the world got. You want it thick you're welcome to have it thick as long as I'm not being invited. :p

By the way Argentine pizza is pretty good due to the large numbers of Italian immigrants.

There are indeed hard and fast rules with respect to genuine Neapolitan pizza governing exactly how they should be made. It has EU protected status.

You talk a good talk ..... but when are you actually going to make a "homemade" pizza and post a picture of it?

Looking forward to it!

:)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddr...n-from-EU.html

http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/eng_chisiamo.php



.

I much prefer the Neapolitan style base and when I get good Neapolitan pizza I like to have it Margherita. Having said that, I have enjoyed lots of different types of bases, even deep dish. The lightness of the deep dish base surprised me.

In the end, if it tastes good I'll eat it. I'm not too fussed about how it should or shouldn't be made.

I agree but also think it's good that if you happen to prefer Neapolitan and can go out of your way to eat at a place that is a member you know you're going to eat a well made authentic pizza with great quality ingredients and made by someone fairly passionate about their craft. That in my view is a nice bit of progress in this world of highly variable food. It's about quality and consistency.

:)

Never meant to imply that any style of pizza was more authentic than any other, but I do know that it would be difficult to find information about the origins of Napolitan pizza without acknowledging that Naples used to be a part of Spain/Kingdom of Aragon. The history of pizza is intertwined and inseparable from the history of cocas, cocques (the name itself is over a thousand years old). I used to have great chats with Toni from the Llorens bakery in Alicante about the local food and its origins and how little there is documenting the food eaten by ordinary people in history. Seems word of his passion spread so a film crew came round and he gives a run down of what he's learned over the years, including his understanding of what a historical coca/pizza would be like. There is a huge, enormous variation in cocas today, they are still eaten across Spain, including on the Eastern Coast as well as in Mallorca and the other Mediterranean Islands. Cocas, as a Spaniard would recognise them, are also still eaten in Italy. Seems to me that the Pizza Romana or Rustica branched off from the coca tradition in different ways and at different times to the Neopolitan style pizza, the Romana/rustica style does appear to bear just a little more resemblance to a coca.

Even if you don't speak Spanish, Toni's recreation of an ancient coca is quite interesting (I think so, anyway)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=diFm-c3_b54

All Indian restaurants with an authentic tandoor oven have very good naans...plain, butter, onion, garlic, green onions....you name it ! Eat it hot right out of the oven. ^

Absolutely. There's a few members in Sydney. I was at Mario's last week.^

There's nothing better.

My new pizza oven is producing great naans and flatbreads. I also make Lebanese flatbreads in it. In reading about what I lose in flavour, most of the opinion I read is that the naan is cooked so quickly in a tandoor the charcoal doesn't have enough time to add flavour as such, but the flavour comes from the charring and caramelisation. To be honest, if you didn't know it hadn't come out of the tandoor I don't think you'd know. We have a lava brick bbq in our kitchen and this gives as some great tikka. Sometimes I marinade a few breast just on spec and leave them in the fridge. I feel lucky to be able to make decent seekh kebab and tikka with naan at home when we're in the mood for it.

If it wasn't so late ... :D

I haven't been to Mario's but am I right in saying there's one close on Circular Quay? Downstairs to Grand Grand? Seem to remember it cooks on wood.

Not as thin as I would have liked but as it was for the wife it didn't matter.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps6f7c1386.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps941258ba.jpg

Oh ... yes..... the old "this wasn't for me ... it was for a friend" excuse ... "I made some pizza but it weren't for me ..." I believe you .... NOT! ;)

Evidently ...ahmmm ... cough .... cough ..;)

What a shocker! Bleedin' "talkin' the talk" but not "walkin' the walk"! I guess you've posted it so must be proud of it ... but seriously it is completely opposite to what you described. It is thick with far too much uncooked ghoo topping. Anyway, is that mayo or béchamel sauce you've slapped all over it? And what are those green specs in the sauce? Perhaps it was all left over from the cauliflower cheese?

You need to look at the pictures of my pizza again. It is very thin, except at the edges where the air balloons. Whole idea of using matured dough in a Neapolitan. The skin of the dough is thin and crisp but the dough inside is as soft as a pillow. That's what around 1000f does. It's around a quarter of the thickness of the one you made which looks like a solid bread base. Sort of welsh rarebit. You're never going to cook a decent pizza in that oven I'm afraid. It ain't good for pizza.

Have another go and post some pictures.

:D:D