Just to clarify, our dinner lasted about that long, with the baby crying about half of that time. Then again, a crying baby hits the nerves in such a way that perhaps the crying seemed longer to me than it really lasted. It was clear to us and at least six other patrons that it was lasting way too long.

BTW, we actually took our first child to restaurants at that age. She hardly ever made a peep. That stopped at around 3 mos. We had a long stretch away from restaurants after that.

dhuey: I totally understand and like you have been on both sides of this type of situation. I was actually going to suggest in my post that it probably just seemed like an hour since even 5 minutes of straight crying seems like an eternity. An hour straight would have made those parents truly extraordinary. Anyway, in a luxury establishment like the RC I think the best way for the restaurant to handle it is to offer the parents, who usually are fairly distressed by this situation themselves, an alternative that still allows them to have some semblance of what they came for while not disturbing others. Sending the meal up via room service with a nice dessert or something seems like a total win. Parents happy and restaurant goers spared.

Funny -- I had similar thoughts about what I'd do. If I were the manager on duty, I'd give the gentle request to have someone take the baby outside of the restaurant. To soften the blow to the clueless family, I'd offer a complimentary cocktail for whoever is heading out with the crying baby.

Do they deserve the free cocktail? Not one molecule of it. This isn't about big picture justice. It's about the easiest way out of a bad situation.

What has happened to common sense?
 

First off, you're right - I don't have kids - I'm far too selfish and that is not fair to them, society, or me - in that order.

Secondly, my goodness, when I was growing up, there was a clear "ladder" of eating out with children - and I believe there still is, but parents must endure the limited menus until their offspring have managed some semblance of civility.

Here's the "ladder":

1) McDonald's/Burger King/Wendy's - lunches and even dinners here until the kids are BOTH out of highchairs and capable of being civil for the length of the meal...

2) Denny's/Shari's/Shoney's/Perkins' - breakfast/lunch/dinner - same as above, as far as achieving the desired results of decently-behaved children...

3) Cool - now you're ready for Red Lobster/Applebee's/Pizza Hut/"all-you-can-shovel-Chinese-type-restaurants" and even TGIFridays' - but only TGIF because it is so loud there that a crying infant/irritated toddler just blends in with "the flair"...

At all above "steps", one takes the infant/toddler/child OUTSIDE the restaurant or at least the dining area if he/she is "causing a scene" (I know, the clueless parents claim to never know this has happened, but really, folks, we all know when it has and it's possibly now too late to repair the damage)...

At each advancing step, the kids are rewarded for good behavior and reprimanded for poor behavior. The nice thing about this plan is that at the earliest stages, even abandoning a meal completely - great for one parent stuck with one or more kids - or having everything packed to go, is fairly quick and painless to EVERYONE!

4) PHEW! The kids may now be over 6 or 7 or 8 and ready for the likes of Outback, Cheesecake Factory, Maggiano's, Olive Garden, etc...

5) OK, the kids are now responding to "the look" (funny how everyone talks about it on planes but never anywhere else, eh?), verbal commands to "knock it off or we are going home, you kids are ruining other peoples' meals, please show some respect and consideration", etc., so maybe we can try a little more upscale restaurant once in a while - once behavior is more-proven, we can even go there more often...at this stage, the kids might even get a rare chance, on a special occasion, to try something like "lobster", with the all-important reminder to "NEVER order the most-expensive thing on the menu without asking us first, ESPECIALLY if we are out to dinner with other people"...as the little darlings get older, many other lessons about "eating at restaurants while on dates" can also be delivered :D

6) BINGO! You've now "earned" your way to a "real" meal at a "real" restaurant - please, restaurant people, don't jump all over me - I worked in them from 14 thru 25 - I mean that in a generic way and not in any way to imply that any (mostly chain) restaurant listed above is not a "real" restaurant - nor do I mean that these places re not serving "real meals", either - geez, lighten up already!...but I digress...by now, you (the children) know what to do with your napkin, how to eat soup, that butter pats are not for launching across the table at your brother, or worse yet, that cranky old couple who clearly have no children and no tolerance for your shenanigans, etc...you are also likely excited to learn the "really cool stuff" - like what that tiny fork is for, how to eat raw oysters, why you "work from the outside in" as far as silverware is concerned, etc...

7) If you are really lucky, maybe Mom and/or Dad will send you to "Cotillion", for exposure to even more-advanced manners and the opportunity to learn to dance and interact with members of the opposite sex and even, GASP, adults - but you've already learned all that from Mom and/or Dad (and/or other responsible adults in your life)! By now, you're in 7th grade or so - or younger if you're a quick learner, and if so, well, "Cotillion" will just have to wait...

OK, sorry to be so long-winded, but when did this sort of "common sense" thing disappear?

Probably at the same time I first encountered the harried mother, 2 toddlers in tow, at a Target in MEM, while BOTH her toddlers had a literally perfect example of a "temper tantrum" in the aisle...when I remarked that she might want to take them home for a nap and try again later, I was rebuked with "you have no idea - this is the ONLY DAY I can take them here and if they act like this I just "bribe them" with a toy so I can get my shopping done"...she then went on to complain that she "had to work" so they could "have 2 brand-new cars, replace their appliances every 5 years (??!!) and live in Georgetown (a tony suburb)"...

OK, flame away! :D

Your list sounds remarkably similar to both the way I was raised, and the way we did it with our children.

The one addition I would make to your list is the purely local restaurant, that's probably on a par with Denny's et al although with much better food.

I'm thinking of the wonderful Mexican restaurant we had in the little town in west Texas whose nachos I still lust for.


Moderator hat on:

No, please don't. This thread has been remarkably civil and thoughtful unlike other threads that relate to children that too often go the sadly slogan-slinging route.

Many kudos to the original poster for setting the tone and continuing to do so too! ^

cblaisd
Senior Moderator

/off mod hat

Purely local restaurant? Where? I am soooo there!
 

Thanks for the kind words. Also nice to know that what I remember is both remembered by others as well as "passed on" by others to their own kids. This, of course, is my own fault in my case! But thanks for passing this sort of thing on to your kids.

I find that, alas, the "purely local restaurant" is going the way of "common sense"! But I agree with you - if there is one, it's to be prized and serves multiple purposes in my "example".

Stuck here in Eden Prairie, MN, I have found only 1 local restaurant (Pastrami Jacks) and it is great, but since it has now been taken over by FTers, it is likely not a good place for kids, at least when we are there!

Involving guns? :p

Thanks, cblaisd. I never get why there's so much immaturity in discussions about kids. Whatever our views on parenting, we can navigate through tricky situations, reach consensus and learn from each other.

Actually, I do have children. My husband does not. When we are out and there is a little charmer running about, screaming, etc., my husband will usually ask, "Is it just me?" He understands that he has a low-child tolerance and I know what is normal-child-behavior and what is oblivious-parent-behavior.

The other night we were out dining and a very active two year old was at the table next to us. We should have asked to have been seated elsewhere, but we took our chances. Big mistake. Parents need to pack the goodie bag full of toys, coloring book and crayons and be prepared to LEAVE if junior acts up. Fortunately these parents were bright enough to allow the rest of their party to linger over drinks and they left with the child as soon as they were done eating.

This is an excellent approach and one we will employ if ever the situation becomes too distressing.

And I want to be real clear, here. The relevant category of effected people for this discussion is "diners," not "parents." We can go 'round an 'round about children on aircraft, but there are times when parents have no choice but to fly with their kids -- I accept that.

However, there is never an occassion when a parent has to bring a too-young-too-behave child into a fine restaurant, and it is never appropriate to do so. Fine restaurants, theaters, art galleries, opera and the like should all be completely out-of-bounds to anyone that is incapable of maintaining the decorum appropriate to the environment, which means no boom boxes, no trumpet practice, no ringing cellphones and absolutely no crying babies.

I refuse to be seated near "families," which is my euphemism for the presence of young children (and my euphemism specifically excludes those well-behaved boys and girls who clearly understand the conduct appropriate for their environment). If I see "families" in a restaurant, I will tell the maitre d' that we wish to be seated as far from the children as possible. If I hear loud children before we are seated, I'll tell the maitre 'd, we want a quiet dinner, and if it's not possible to keep us away from the children, we'll be dining elsewhere tonight. If a "family" is seated near us after we've already sat down, I'll ask to be moved.

As I say, there are two sides to the issue with respect to children on aircraft. There are not two sides to the issue with respect to fine restaurants. Restaurants are not transportation, and a significant portion of my bill goes to the ambience. I pick a restaurant for the entire experience of dining out, not just for cramming food into my mouth as quickly as possible. Noisy children and babies do not belong there, ever, under any circumstance.

It's surprisingly effective. One note: if I leave because of the presence of children, I'll pay for what I consumed, e.g. pre-dinner drinks, salad, etc., and I'll make a point of leaving a nice tip for the waiter or waitress. I do this for two reasons: (1) it's not the servers fault that the restaurant allowed the kid in, and (2) it sends a message about what kind of patrons the restaurant wants to encourage -- every server I've ever met has told me that the parents of the screaming babies and bratty kids (not the well-mannered boys and girls who, of course, are fine), leave a mess and never tip well.

Actually, I disagree with this. I can think of a number of occasions, a christening celebration is the most obvious, however that is what private rooms are for.

I agree with respect to private rooms. I think, however, that the restaurant AND the parents do everyone a disservice when they allow this kind of celebration to proceed in a public dining room. I don't think it is ever appropriate for anyone to disturb other diners. The Chinese handle this kind of thing exactly right -- virtually all restaurants in China, except for the smallest holes-in-the-wall, have multiple private rooms and, usually, the main dining room can be partitioned with floor to ceiling dividers. This allows for noisey parties to be held cheek-by-jowl with intimate dinners and normal family and other social get-togethers without anyone disturbing anyone else.

Regarding point 2), the server is wrong.

On point 1), why would you tip anything if you had to leave the restaurant? Almost everything that can go wrong with a meal is not a result of the server's negligence. You are tipping for a service, and whose fault as to why the service stinks is irrelevant.

You should leave no tip and indicate why. That will actually send a message. Tipping well tells the restaurant that they should cater to obnoxious families, because they can collect big tips while doing little work for the other patrons.

I'm not being facetious when I write this; if a restaurant is supposed to be a fine dining experience then they should boot out people disturbing other patrons (whether it's an infant or people like my dumb fat relatives, loud is loud).

I take my kids to McDonald's, Burger King, Waffle House or Perkin's. It's cheap, I can smoke at the latter two, and regarding this thread, there is no expectation of library quiet dining. McD's and BK food leaves something to be desired but the kids love the playground.

What irritates me is when people complain about kids on airplanes and other venues like that. Fine dining is not one of them.

On this one, I speak from the perspective of a former waiter, albeit many decades ago (I can't believe I just wrote that -- "many decades." I feel old. ;) ) The server doesn't seat customers -- the maitre d' or host does. It's up to them to say, "I'm sorry, but the atmosphere of this restaurant really isn't conducive to young children. We'd love to welcome you without them, or perhaps you'd like me to recommend a restaurant that can provide a better experience for you. Unfortunately, we will not be able to accomodate you tonight."

Many hosts will make this speech. Sadly, many will not. There's little the server can do, other than communicate the problem to the host or offer to reseat existing patrons.

Servers depend, exclusively, on tips for their income. I regard admitting disturbing guests (and I agree with you completely -- it doesn't matter whether the patron creating the disturbance is 3, 30 or 83) as the fault of restaurant management, not staff. I just hate to see a server miss a rent payment because of bad judgment by management. Then again, my wife says I tend to overtip. ;)

There's a website for servers called, I think, "stainedapron.com" or something similar. Waiters and waitresses go there to b!tch, just as we FFs come to FT to do the same. You should see what they write about some (but, of course, not all) families. Believe, the problems caused by disrespectful parents who bring crying babies or out-of-control younger children is well known in the industry. If it's tolerated, it's because of an express policy of the restaurant that favors maximum profits over the quality of the dining experience. Withholding tips hurts the server. Walking out on a dinner (particularly after it's been ordered and started in the kitchen) hurts the restaurant far, far more.

I agree with you 100%. :)

I also liked an earlier post that talked about gradually introducing kids to progressively more upscale restaurants. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've seen well-behaved boys and girls (and some surprisingly young) who were perfect little diners and also really seemed to enjoy the dining experience. Kids like that should certainly be welcome in fine restaurants and, I suspect, it's fairly easy to distinguish between these kids and the problem ones at the door. I hope you can soon take your kids to the better places -- McD's and the like can't be too much fun.

We'll just have to agree to disagree and, as I said, I acknowledge that there's two sides to that question. I'm glad we agree about fine dining.

I was talking about loud families "never" (your words) leaving a good tip. That is false.

Yes, tips are a large part of their income, but they aren't your dependents. What happens if you take a vacation? Do the servers at the restaurant where you live go homeless? Of course not. There's tipping, and then there's patronizing.

Yes, and web sites like those are not a reflection of reality. If they were, most people getting off a plane would be in tears because they didn't get green limes with their drink in First Class. Reality is that most people get off a plane after having nodded off in their cramped coach seat and they didn't collect any miles for the trip because they neglected to sign up for the frequent flyer program.


I'm not going to take my kids to better places because I don't like eating there myself. I went to this place in Greenville, SC called Stax Peppermill, and they served crap that makes Taco Bell taste good (and I hate Taco Bell). I cannot understand why people pay so much money for molasses-speed service and food that is barely edible (in my case OPM paid for the meal, so at least it was just a waste of time and not a waste of money).