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bhrubin Sep 14, 2014 11:11 am
Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23522471)
I've actually heard of ALL of those wines, and tasted most of them. You should probably put a bit more care into shopping. The Achaval Ferrer single vineyard Malbecs are easily found for $85-90. You might also try their Quimera, which is a blend that costs under $50, and IMHO, is at least as interesting as the single Fincas. The top Cobos wines can also be found for $60-80 a bottle. I could also name about 20 other Malbecs that you can get for $30-50 that I think are every bit as distinguished as the Achaval Ferrer and Cobos wines - and BTW, Achaval Ferrer is my favorite winery in Argentina, but I've never paid more than $90 a bottle for any of their single vineyard wines. - and I invariably prefer their Quimera for $40-50 a bottle. I also would recommend some other top Argentina domaines: Diamandes Winery, Bodegas Giminez Riili, Mendel, Colome, Bressia, and Altocedro. All of these are making wines at the level of Achaval Ferrer and Vina Cobos, and most of their top wines are selling for $30-60 a bottle.

As far as Syrahs go, I'd stack the Foxen or Andrew Murray single vineyard wines, which cost about $50 a bottle, against any of those you listed, for complexity, character, and ageworthiness. I might also suggest that you try a winery called The Farm Winery - which is a boutique winery in the Paso Robles area that's the pet project of Santiago Achaval, from Achaval Ferrer.

The Sine Qua Non wines, along with Colgin and Bryant Cabs, are textbook examples of wine that taste more like the barrels they are made with than the grapes. Those are three of the wineries I had in mind when I referred to labels rather than wines (I do like Harlan, though, but it's simply not worth the money they charge). I'm surprised to not see Screaming Eagle in your list as well. Give me a Chateau Montelena Estate Cab over any of those - as well as Pahlmeyer, which is another wine you're paying too much for - it can easily be found for $80 or so. I'd also prefer Dominus to any of those on your list.

I'll cut you some slack on the Pinot Noirs, because they are small-lot artisnal wines - and I do like Sea Smoke - but I'd suggest that you explore Oregon for some really fine choices that can easily be found for $60-80 a bottle. I'd start with Christom. I am also a big fan of Foxen and Dierberg in the Santa Rita Hills area, if you're a fan of Sea Smoke. Again, you can generally get some really GREAT pinots for $50-60 a bottle.
It seems that because you think certain wines are better (and often less expensive) than others that you believe that everyone must agree with your assessment, and that is a preposterous idea. Just because you don't like a wine or think another is better doesn't mean that's true for everyone else.

I listed rough values/prices off the top of my head, so the exact prices I won't bother to evaluate. If certain examples of the wines mentioned can be found for a bit less money, then so be it--but that doesn't preclude that the wines we like are worth the money for us that we pay for them. While Achaval and Cobos are expensive, we also can get them through an import company that makes it very easy to purchase, so we stick with those...and we've been very happy with them.

I know all of the other wines you've also mentioned, too, and while they are, indeed, wonderful wines, we find that they often are not as consistently good or don't age as consistently as those that we have. In our judgment, we prefer the wines we get. It's just that simple. If you prefer the others more, then we think that's great. We'd never tell anyone that one wine or another is better for them; we can only evaluate the wines for ourselves and buy what we prefer to drink.

As an example, we used to get Kistler Chards and Pinots, and I actually used to more highly prefer the Pinots despite the fact that the Chards were the reason for the Kistler "fame". Over the years, as we tried others, we decided we preferred other Chards and Pinots, and so we gave up on Kistler in lieu of the other mentioned. We now get no Kistler. We used to order Araujo, too, but quickly determined that we weren't fans of those as much as others. We don't buy into name so much as whether or not we like a wine relative to another, with price being a factor if there are others that we prefer for less on a consistent basis of taste and age ability from our perspective and no one else's.

Screaming Eagle has never been one of my favorites...and for the money, we like the 100% Cabernet options from Hundred Acre, Bryant, and Colgin much better, and those are also cheaper (but still very expensive).

We don't get our wine to impress you or anyone else. We get our wines because we enjoy drinking them. We find our examples to be the best for us, though that can and will change over time, I'm sure, as it has up to this point.

gfunkdave Sep 14, 2014 1:56 pm
Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23524427)

We don't get our wine to impress you or anyone else. We get our wines because we enjoy drinking them. We find our examples to be the best for us, though that can and will change over time, I'm sure, as it has up to this point.
And that's the important thing. ^

I think that lhgreengrd1 was just suggesting potential alternatives to check out, since it seems your tastes steer to the "name brand" new world wines.

In your price range for new world Pinot noirs, what do you think of Shea and Beaux Frères?

bhrubin Sep 14, 2014 3:51 pm
Originally Posted by gfunkdave (Post 23525119)
And that's the important thing. ^

I think that lhgreengrd1 was just suggesting potential alternatives to check out, since it seems your tastes steer to the "name brand" new world wines.

In your price range for new world Pinot noirs, what do you think of Shea and Beaux Frères?
I think Shea and Beaux Freres are nice pinot noirs, but IMO merely solid chardonnays that lack punch. The pinot noirs have nice fruit and bouquet on the nose (much more strawberry than I get from Sonoma), but they aren't terribly complex for me. (For me, complexity is a dance on my tongue, giving multiple sensations at the same time; for others, it likely can be different.) I also have not often liked either beyond 5-6 years of bottle age as much as I've liked others (or ours)...but it's been about a year since I last tried one. They remind me of younger and simpler Sonoma Coast versions of Williams Selyem.

exilencfc Sep 14, 2014 4:04 pm
Originally Posted by Eastbay1K (Post 23522578)
Even more sadly, this is often better than the complimentary "domestic USA airline lounge pour" served these days.

Now back to our average spend at home, which is the regularly scheduled program for this thread.
The wine most favoured in our household normally retails for £8 but we try to bulk buy it when it's reduced. I am by no means a wine conossieur and quite happily drink several whites which retail around the £4 mark.

Reds I am a bit more picky, the one we normally have when we go to a particular restauraunt costs around £30 but would presumably be cheaper elsewhere. That said I also like the Bosnian stuff my brother brought home from Croatia which cost under a fiver.

I like to drink local wines when i'm abroad, I need to bring some Austrian stuff home with me at some point.

lhgreengrd1 Sep 14, 2014 7:41 pm
Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23524427)
It seems that because you think certain wines are better (and often less expensive) than others that you believe that everyone must agree with your assessment, and that is a preposterous idea. Just because you don't like a wine or think another is better doesn't mean that's true for everyone else.
Not at all - but it certainly seems as though you are drinking Parker and Wine Spectator scores.

And I will reitterate, you are WAY overpaying for Achaval Ferrer and Cobos top-end Malbecs, if you are paying $125 for those bottles.

gfunkdave Sep 14, 2014 8:06 pm
Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23525583)
I think Shea and Beaux Freres are nice pinot noirs, but IMO merely solid chardonnays that lack punch. The pinot noirs have nice fruit and bouquet on the nose (much more strawberry than I get from Sonoma), but they aren't terribly complex for me. (For me, complexity is a dance on my tongue, giving multiple sensations at the same time; for others, it likely can be different.) I also have not often liked either beyond 5-6 years of bottle age as much as I've liked others (or ours)...but it's been about a year since I last tried one. They remind me of younger and simpler Sonoma Coast versions of Williams Selyem.
You know, I really wish I had a good palate (also: a nice singing voice). My palate is adequate, but I frequently feel like I'm missing the next level of the wine experience.

Strawberry is a really excellent description of the main fruit on the nose of the Shea I had last night.

What are some pinot noirs that exhibit the complexity you're referring to? I'll keep an eye out. Or are these only Burgundies?

bhrubin Sep 14, 2014 10:26 pm
Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23526382)
Not at all - but it certainly seems as though you are drinking Parker and Wine Spectator scores.

And I will reitterate, you are WAY overpaying for Achaval Ferrer and Cobos top-end Malbecs, if you are paying $125 for those bottles.
Haha, I've not looked at WS in a decade...but I have read Parker reviews before. I think it's more that my palate enjoys similar types of wine, perhaps. But I've loved wines like Littorai that Parker eschews, so I don't follow rankings. I follow my own tastes.

As I said, I was giving estimates. We also get single vineyard offerings that tend to be more expensive, but since we are ordering directly from the wineries, whatever we are paying is the lowest retail/wholesale price...so maybe I just overestimated. But I know we've ordered Cobos wines costing $175 from Paul Hobbs Imports (co-owner of Cobos).

Originally Posted by gfunkdave (Post 23526456)
You know, I really wish I had a good palate (also: a nice singing voice). My palate is adequate, but I frequently feel like I'm missing the next level of the wine experience.

Strawberry is a really excellent description of the main fruit on the nose of the Shea I had last night.

What are some pinot noirs that exhibit the complexity you're referring to? I'll keep an eye out. Or are these only Burgundies?
We rarely buy Burgundies--just too damn expensive for a difference in taste that I admit to loving but which isn't big enough for me to justify. We mostly go for Burgundian style California Pinot Noir for the most part--since we do live here--and Felton road from New Zealand. My favorite Pinot is Aubert, followed by Morlet and Pahlmeyer and Sea Smoke. I've had some amazing Rochioli and Sean Thackrey, too...and Littorai may be the most elegant of them all. Williams Selyem are good, too...but the number of different single vineyard offerings were too crazy. I'd recommend looking at Pahlmeyer's Jaysen second label for a good deal, and also some Williams Selyem and Littorai if you can find them. But try out different ones and ask the salespeople at your local shop for their recommendations.

Palate is personal. What I describe one way you might also be enjoying but simply use different terminology to describe. It's wine. Enjoy it...and don't worry so much about these "qualities" unless you discover some that matter to you. For me, it often depends on my mood or what I happen to be eating. I can drink a big heavy Kistler Pinot with a steak, for example, even if I most often drink Syrah or a bigger red/blend. If I could get Carmenere more reliably, I'd drink them more, too--same big body and fruit as the biggest reds but without the complexity...and with significantly lower price tags! Syrah tends to fit that big for me more now these days...but it changes.

lhgreengrd1 Sep 15, 2014 7:27 am
Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23526898)
As I said, I was giving estimates. We also get single vineyard offerings that tend to be more expensive, but since we are ordering directly from the wineries, whatever we are paying is the lowest retail/wholesale price...so maybe I just overestimated. But I know we've ordered Cobos wines costing $175 from Paul Hobbs Imports (co-owner of Cobos).
BTW, Wineries that sell direct often do so because they can charge HIGHER prices than they could if they went through distribution channels. Buying from places like The Wine Club and Costco is invariably cheaper than buying direct from wineries. Of course, the wineries that sell predominantly off of their mailing list are putting most of their efforts into maintaining an air of exclusivity to justify their pricing.

bhrubin Sep 15, 2014 9:37 am
Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23528189)
BTW, Wineries that sell direct often do so because they can charge HIGHER prices than they could if they went through distribution channels. Buying from places like The Wine Club and Costco is invariably cheaper than buying direct from wineries. Of course, the wineries that sell predominantly off of their mailing list are putting most of their efforts into maintaining an air of exclusivity to justify their pricing.
Well that isn't true for the wineries from which we order our wine. I've yet to discover any wholesaler that typically offers the wines we buy for less than we've paid--except for a few auctions or other distributor offers that are usually years later than the original release. Most of our wines are of pretty limited production, often because the wineries have such low yields that are required to bolster the fruit quality. We've never seen the wines we order at Costco (where we are members).

lhgreengrd1 Sep 15, 2014 4:58 pm
Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23528878)
Well that isn't true for the wineries from which we order our wine. I've yet to discover any wholesaler that typically offers the wines we buy for less than we've paid--except for a few auctions or other distributor offers that are usually years later than the original release. Most of our wines are of pretty limited production, often because the wineries have such low yields that are required to bolster the fruit quality. We've never seen the wines we order at Costco (where we are members).
Costco in the S.F. Bay Area (Redwood City) was selling single vineyard Achaval Ferrer Malbecs for $85 a bottle 2 weeks ago.

bhrubin Sep 15, 2014 5:12 pm
Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23531363)
Costco in the S.F. Bay Area (Redwood City) was selling single vineyard Achaval Ferrer Malbecs for $85 a bottle 2 weeks ago.
That would be a great deal! I'd have bought them there but I didn't see them at Costco the last time I was there. I'll look for the next time, thanks.

dhammer53 Sep 15, 2014 9:48 pm
Originally Posted by crabbing (Post 23515323)

Good Pinot noir on the other hand are rarely below $18. Below $20 maybe, but pretty much never below $18.
Drinkable pinot noir starts at $25, and more likely $35 +.

Originally Posted by Eastbay1K (Post 23504349)
And what happens when you remove the lower priced bottles? ;)
Can I raid your cellar? :D

Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23521830)
We have a wine cellar, so we likely are at the upper range of normal. Our average wines cost (purchased directly from wineries and rarely at a wholesaler near our home):

Pinot Noir: $80-100

Cabernet/Cabernet blends: $250-300

Have you heard of www.wineberserkers.com It's a website like Flyertalk, except most conversation is about wine. ;)

If you're drinking pinot at $80+, you're drinking good juice. I top out at Rhys and Sea Smoke.

On the high end of cabs, I enjoy Maybach, Schrader, and Kapcsandy.

Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23522156)
So don't pay more than $100! I'm not trying to tell you what to buy or spend.


Cabernet/blends: Pahlmeyer $125, Peter Michael $175, Hundred Acre $275, Abreu $325, Colgin $350, Bryant $425, Harlan $550, also Meerlust (South Africa) $45, Woodlands (Margaret River Australia) $90

Syrahs: Saxum $85, Alban $120, Sine Qua Non $160.

Pinot Noirs: Aubert $90, Pahlmeyer $80, Morlet $90, Sea Smoke $65, also Felton Road (New Zealand) $65
You should join us at WineDo in NY this coming June. You'd be impressed with the wines we drink. Check out the thread in the Community forum from June.

All are welcome to join us. We have a minimum of $35, and no maximum. And let me tell you, some of the 24 attendees step up. ^

dh

Kgmm77 Sep 16, 2014 1:56 am
Originally Posted by dhammer53 (Post 23532502)
Drinkable pinot noir starts at $25, and more likely $35 +
I can't think of a nice way to put this, but if you can't find drinkable pinot at less than this you need to broaden horizons outside of California/Oregon and Burgundy or look harder.

I've had good-great German, South African, Chilean, Tasmanian, Kiwi pinot in the last 12 months in the $18-25 range.

Eastbay1K Sep 16, 2014 9:42 am
Originally Posted by dhammer53 (Post 23532502)


Can I raid your cellar? :D
My "cellar" is above-ground. :p This is why my average spend is less than yours, not to mention the annual round trip air and hotel + shipping to sample your cellar each year.

bhrubin Sep 16, 2014 7:09 pm
Originally Posted by dhammer53 (Post 23532502)
Drinkable pinot noir starts at $25, and more likely $35 +.
I must agree with some others; as much as I tend to drink pinots more than $40, I certainly have enjoyed many that are less, especially from New World wine regions. To be fair, I've found that many of those are not consistently enjoyable for my palate from vintage to vintage.

If you're drinking pinot at $80+, you're drinking good juice. I top out at Rhys and Sea Smoke.

On the high end of cabs, I enjoy Maybach, Schrader, and Kapcsandy.
Rhys and Sea Smoke are excellent--as are Schrader and Kapcsandy! We have some in the cellar. We stopped ordering Rhys and Kapcsandy simply because we can't order them all. We still order Sea Smoke. I'm not as big a fan of Maybach compared to others at that price point, but it is a wonderful wine. We stopped ordering Schrader partly because of the way they handled a visit request on a few occasions--and since there are others that price similarly and were more accommodating, we simply chose the others. :-) Kapcsandy is one we might eventually sorely miss, but we have plenty of the Grand Cuvee and Roberta's Reserve in the cellar. :-)

You should join us at WineDo in NY this coming June. You'd be impressed with the wines we drink. Check out the thread in the Community forum from June.
Thanks for the invite! I'm not a big fan of crowds, big wine events, (or whisky events, to be fair), and tastings; I prefer to visit the wineries, chat with the winemakers (partly because of my winemaking interest), and see the vineyards--as much as taste the wines. We're heading back to South Africa in January to visit some of those we've not yet visited: Vergelegen, Kanonkop (meeting with winemaker), Tokara (meeting with winemaker), Chamonix (meeting with winemaker), Mullineux (meeting with winemaker), and Sadie Family (to possibly help with barrel selection!).

Kagehitokiri Sep 16, 2014 7:38 pm
this thread should definitely be interesting
(considering: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/dinin...ur-cellar.html)

flaviocc Sep 16, 2014 7:53 pm
Guys,

nice thread !

In December we go to California(29 days) and we want to try some affordable wines.

We will spend Christmas near San Luis Obispo. Here is a good area to taste some wines ?

Which wines do you guys recommend to buy in California ?

swknoell Sep 17, 2014 7:03 pm
I spend $15-20 for a house wine but

IMNSHO, if you are looking for California wines, or even if you're not, Groth Red Stripe is the best Cab out there...and Domaine Carneros La Reve is the best champagne.

Sharon

HIDDY Sep 17, 2014 7:42 pm
I buy three 5 litre casks at a time brought from Mendoza by my local shop owner. Usually a mixture of Malec,Tempranillo and Syrah. I uncork one at a time and decant into 6 bottles. Cost for 5 litres is 80 pesos which is tremendous value considering the quality. A weaker man than I could easily become an alcoholic here. :D

He brings some decent oporto and olives as well.

dhammer53 Sep 19, 2014 7:07 am
Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 23533141)
I can't think of a nice way to put this, but if you can't find drinkable pinot at less than this you need to broaden horizons outside of California/Oregon and Burgundy or look harder.

I've had good-great German, South African, Chilean, Tasmanian, Kiwi pinot in the last 12 months in the $18-25 range.
I'm always open to recommendations.

Originally Posted by bhrubin (Post 23537630)


Thanks for the invite! I'm not a big fan of crowds, big wine events
This is a casual setting where most of the conversation is miles, points, and travel (plus a little wine). Nothing fancy.

Originally Posted by flaviocc (Post 23537786)

In December we go to California(29 days) and we want to try some affordable wines.

We will spend Christmas near San Luis Obispo. Here is a good area to taste some wines ?
Just down the road, check out Los Olivos. It's a small town with several tasting rooms. Check out Tercero. He has good quality, and tasty wines, in the $20 range. This is adjacent to Santa Ynez and Solvang (cute Danish town), and Lompoc aka Lompoc Ghetto has lots of wineries there too. A favorite is Loring.
This area is ~60 miles south of SLO.

Also check out Santa Barbara. That's the big town on the coast. Multiple tasting rooms there.

You may want to check out the California forum. There may be additional information on wineries and places to see. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/california-450/

dh

Kgmm77 Sep 19, 2014 3:20 pm
Originally Posted by dhammer53 (Post 23550353)
I'm always open to recommendations.
Off the top of my head from pinots I've enjoyed over the last 12 months
Chat Sauvage Spätburgunder (Germany)
Erazurriz Wild Ferment (Chile)
Roaring Meg, Central Otago (NZ)
Innocent Bystander, Yarra Valley (Aus)
Newton Johnson (SA)

flaviocc Sep 20, 2014 5:06 pm
@dhammer53,

thank you for your information.

DeepUnderground Sep 20, 2014 6:20 pm
$35 USD+ minimum, for what's probably an 8 dollar bottle of wine in the US...sigh.

Gaucho100K Oct 11, 2014 7:31 pm
Originally Posted by DeepUnderground (Post 23557106)
$35 USD+ minimum, for what's probably an 8 dollar bottle of wine in the US...sigh.
Yeah... I feel you pain. Had an apartment in CGK quite a few years ago and good juice was very expensive... I see Reimer and his boys continue to make good $$$$ in Jakarta.... ;)

heraclitus Oct 15, 2014 1:32 pm
For me it's about C$13 (closer to C$15 with taxes). Sometimes less, sometimes more. Rarely over C$18 (around $20 with taxes).

I don't have the most refined palate when it comes to wine... to me, it's hard to tell apart a $15 and $30 bottle. I have had some > $50 bottles and the difference is a bit clearer, but I can't afford to consume those as my go-to dinner-at-home wines!

JackInThePlane Oct 25, 2014 7:15 pm
Originally Posted by theshaun (Post 23496360)
What do you spend on bottle of wine for a regular night at home? Not at a restaurant, not a special occasion, just your regular night at home.

For me it's about $20

$70+ almost exclusively white Burgundy or Champagne.

I dollar cost average....3-4 nights a week I keep it to beer.

MikeFromTokyo Oct 29, 2014 10:25 am
Probably around $40 US average, I find a lot of nice bottles in the $20~$40 range.

Gaucho100K Mar 4, 2017 3:04 pm
bumping this interesting thread.... :D

Madone59 Mar 6, 2017 11:28 am
For my wife the average is $10. She loves cheap pinot grigio. For me i'd say $30. I rarely buy wine but if I do it is because someone served me something good, and I wanted it again.

Reds2011 Mar 7, 2017 4:10 am
$30 to $50 in this part of the world for something I would pay $20 for back in Australia - sigh. What gets me is that I can buy a case of beer here for a couple of dollars less than I pay for it in Brisbane, why can't they do the same with wine?

pinniped Mar 9, 2017 7:25 am
We're in a wine club at an excellent local wine shop: those bottles are always $30-40 each and are always quite good. We've opted all-red, although they offer whites too. If I'm drinking white, it's probably a $9 Kirkland Chard or it's 100 degrees out and I'm drinking an ice cold Reisling.

Anyway, the reds. I like to grill steak, so we usually open the $30-40 bottles for those meals. For an everyday drinker, the $12 Rodney Strong Cab gets the job done. Pretty decent wine for something that's always available at Costco. I also am perfectly willing to drink any of the other Kirkland varietals in the $8-10 range....I guess that's a "rich man's Two Buck Chuck?" ;)

work2fly Mar 9, 2017 8:37 am
I'm a $15 to $20 / bottle guy.

I like Rhones, Pinot Noir (especially from France and NZ) and non-oaked whites. I've found I can drink quite well at that price point.

Pretty much all of my shopping is done at a wine shop up the road from me...K&L wines: www.klwines.com They have a 'premium' wine club - 2 bottles per month at $15-$20 each, from pretty much all over, so it's a good way to try new things.


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