I'm an enormous fan of Zoji rice makers and I'd love to see some comments from someone who has used a Zoji breadmaker and a Panasonic.

Both--just not at the same time!

I'm delighted to find this thread.

I am on my second bread machine (I wore out the first one). I have a WestBend that Mr. Fwoomp, who purchased it for me as a gift, says was described as the poor man's Zojirushi in the reviews he read. Frankly, he's done more research into them than I have!

The recipe I have that gets the most use is for American-style pumpernickel, which works for us as a good all-purpose toast and sandwich bread. If we have extra people around for breakfast, I use it for cinnamon rolls. I also have a great recipe for roasted garlic bread that goes over well at parties.

Love making my own pizza bases, cheese or plain scones and plate pies when I have free time. I have never made a loaf of bread although I'm sure I will do so in the future.

You can't beat that kneading feeling

I know we've done all this before in a pizza thread .... but it makes a load of difference if you make a biga / poolish starter the day before. Try it.

A friend in HKG has started a micro-bakery - http://www.facebook.com/microDBaker I never knew bread was so complicated until I spoke to him!

(Last time I stayed they were just finalising this, so he didn't have time to bake :()

I've got a bread maker, and go through phases, but haven't had the inclination to really experiment to get the best out of it.

Your friend has made things a bit tough for himself. That stuff looks pretty intricate and complicated. Choco-Cherry sourdough?! That Fendu crust looks good. Good advert though. ;)

I suspect that producing a range and in quantity is pretty complicated ... particularly with sourdoughs etc, and of course there's coping with seasonal temperatures in the bakery etc But to be honest I'm suprised at how easy it is to produce bread I'd previously thought of as being difficult.

The only thing I've really not pursued is sourdough - too much of a palaver - but instead simply mature starters for a day or two. It's only 20 seconds work to mix a little yeast water and flour in a tumbler and leave it for a day or so to froth and mature and gives a flavourful but un-sour loaf.

I guess if you don't think about bread or yearn for really good bread all the time as I seem to - and that bread is inaccessable then it isn't really worthwhile.

He is a perfectionist. His sourdough mix was brought back from London, travelling in the pointy end of the plane :D

Bread is fattening and I can eat it in vast quantities, so I try not to have it in the house.

But I can't resist proper, artisanal bread either. I can't go to Edinburgh farmer's market without coming back with a loaf from Konditorei http://www.falko.co.uk/visit-us/edin...farmers-market

I love good bread. I enjoy making it, but I just don't have the time (don't like the stuff baked in the bread machine, it doesnt work for me, happy for it to do the kneading and rising, but I need to do the baking part myself). So I buy good bakery bread. Yesterday I bought ciabatta rolls, they are lovely, warm with butter (yes, butter, not olive oil!) I even go Argentinian and add salt on top sometimes! Today I have paneer curry with some garlic naan, and reading this thread is making me think I need to go and nuke it!

Emma,

you are very naughty. :p

If you have time to post on FT you have time to make a little bread. The machine can do most of it for you. Just make a starter the day before and finish by hand. Buy one of those baguette tins and you're there.

A nice soft flatbread could be made in your machine .... a little milk or yoghurt to a plain bread mix .. flatten it out and cooked on a steak griddle. How tough is that?

I'll have you making bagels in no time .....

I think my office might notice that I am making bread at my desk - at least doing this it looks like I am working on an important document (ok, right now I am eating naan and typing, but still).

My problem is that I often don't get home until 8ish, and the thought of baking bread at that point doesn't inspire me. Weekends are easier, absolutely.

The timer feature that many bread makers is great for that if you are OK with the bake-in-the-maker loaves (and don't make recipes that call for fresh milk or other ingedients that spoil too quickly).

Just put starter ingredients in the maker before bed, let it run on the dough cycle, dump the other ingredients on top before work, and set the machine to start about 3 hours (or whatever the length of the cycle is) before you get home. Fresh bread on arrival.

I forgot people work as well as make bread! :D

I do bread occasionally, but I used to make it a lot more- at least once a week. I noticed something. The flour today seems.. different. Not as good, in fact I was doing a loaf of "no knead" about a month ago and it actually had MOLD on it the next day! Making bread can be tiresome & is very messy. I got sick of dealing with it and end up buying good bread. The bread in stores has better gluten content than any I have made, too- homemade bread just isn't "springy" enough for me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

That could be either technique OR the flour type/gluten content. If it's the latter, aside from adding gluten separately (which should be in most good supermarket baking aisles), there are also some "harder" flours which have a higher gluten content beyond normal bread flours.

One such: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/...ten-flour-3-lb

King Arthur is our preferred brand. While I don't do a ton of loafs, it's so easy to make your own pizza crust dough in the bread machine that we haven't had take out pizza in months.

Yup, not a fan of how my bread machine bakes loaves - the hole in the bottom, the crust isn't great, it seems hit or miss as to whether it cooks evenly (and it isn't a cheap machine). I prefer shaping it and baking in the oven, it just seems so much nicer that way.

It's mildly shocking to me how many people use bread machines. I don't even think I've ever even seen one.

It's much nicer that way, absolutely.

OTOH, I find the bread machine results still nice (although not as nice), and much easier (if not a better result) than making a same-day trip to one of the better supermarkets for a fresh loaf won't keep well, and much nicer than the bagged sliced bread I can get anywhere that will keep for ages.

Likely not very useful, and I have not tried them, but BreadMan now advertises a collapsing paddle to avoid (or at least minimize) the hole in the bottom.

I am lucky in that there is a good bakery steps from my office, so if I want a fresh loaf it's easy peasy. If I had to get in my car to go and get bread, I might agree.

If you like your crusts .... don't forget your steam!:)

I was taught to toss a handfull of ice cubes into the oven when putting my Italian style breads in there to create steam. Is this what you do, or is there another method?

I am very proud of my method :)

I use one of those ridged cast iron steak griddles. It's left permanently in the bottom of the oven. Let it get really hot. Bread in first. Quarter of a cup of water onto griddle door slammed shut. Just 5 minutes or so. Bread out and let water evaporate out of oven and reheat. After around 10!minutes bread back in for rest of bake time. Lovely crisp crust.

I will have to remember that!

I use my pizza stone in my oven, hot, to help with the initial spring, it does a good job. Been using sourdough - rye and wheat starters for a year or so. Its great to see so many people on FT with an interest. Since I have used sourdough, my stomach is much more settled, another plus. Have used "the Fresh Loaf" http://www.thefreshloaf.com/ for a long time for a super source of advice. Plus Dan Lepard's "The Handmade Loaf" - a great book for all keen people. His section on kneading teaches ver little actual kneading but lots of resting periods - he has a good website too.

I've been trying to steam for years. I have a semi-professional gas oven (Dynasty now Jade) which heats from the bottom with burner on the outside. Placing a tin of boiling water on the bottom of the oven, I can never get the water to boil and steam even with a hot oven.

I spoke to a French cuisinier (not a boulanger the other day and he has been experimenting with no knead dough. He places a wet dough (80% weight in water) into a pre-heated dutch oven which he then covers and bakes for 1/2 hr before removing the lid (can't remember if he tips out the loaf too) and bakes it for another 1/2 hr. He says the crust is perfect this way (using high-gluten Canadian wheat which he mills himself).

I must admit to not being too convinced about not kneading for non-soda bread. That won't give usable stretched gluten and it just seems odd. And the higher the hydration rate the more benefit there is from working the dough imho.

The dutch oven method is discussed on some of the bread sites - it normally involves throwing some water in - the idea being that the dutch oven just provides less of a volume for you to trap steam ie more intense steam per cubuc centimetre of oven. It shouldn't be necessary to go to that palaver and trying to boil water in the oven seems pointless.

75 - 80% hydration is what I always use for any French style breads and many others particularly when using a poolish starter. In other words a 100/100 poolish added to a 100/50 mix the following day gives 75% - so it's an easy ritual to remember and get into just making the whole mass bigger or smaller depending on how many baguettes I want that day.

That's why you may want to try the iron griddle method I suggested. I struggled with all of the methods I read about and found them all to have their defects. The steak iron griddle was one of those middle of the night ideas. The iron produces intense heat and the griddle ridges produces lots of surface. It also has the advantage that the griddle sits permanently on the base of the oven and you don't need to find storage for dutch ovens. I'm suprised I haven't read anyone else thinking of it.

With that method the griddle gets very hot and you put the bread in then throw a small amount of water on the griddle ridges and that produces so much instant steam it is sometimes hard to close the oven door. The art is a relatively small amount of water and just for 5 to 10 minutes. Too much water or for too long tends to just produce a thick chewy crust. I also place the loaves on semolina and then on the perforated baguette trays or sheets. A controlled initial burst of intense steam sort of injects the bread surface - followed by a dry hot oven produces crispness. I do all my baguettes this way and always also give them a spray of water before putting them in the oven.

Steam -

It's been ages since I've done it, but if you heat up something that can get pretty hot, like a cast iron pan, and put a aluminum pie plate full above if, and if the pie plate has a pinhole or two over the cast iron pan, it will drip water in slowly which will instantly turn to steam. It's much better than trying to get a pan of water hot enough, which just never seems to happen. Not enough steam, poke a few more holes in it.

Bakery -

It was actually when a really good bakery moved into the area that inspired me to start baking bread again. Our schedule doesn't always get us there when they are open, and even then sometimes stuff is right out of the oven, sometimes not. At home, well it's always hot out of the oven if that's how you want it.

My better half bakes irish soda bread, muffins and fruit cake regularly. She'd do it more often but afraid I'll gain too much weight munching away :p

I love bread! :)

Your first post. So inspired and well informed!

Welcome to FT ... and this thread ... now tell us about your brad festish.:D

I have a pizza stone (which I usually keep in the oven even when not making pizza... thermal mass, y'know...), and I"m wondering about soaking it for breadmaking... any thoughts?

No liquid anywhere near your stone! Why?:confused:

Your bread would steam, which I doubt you would want. However, I doubt if the stone would hold or absorb water, apart from a general wetting. As someone else mentioned - iron griddle type thing or a few ice cubes on the oven base and maybe a spray.:)

I make bread all the time - And just bought Thomas Keller's Bouchon Bakery Cookbook. Worth every penny and has the measurements all in weights.

Brioche, baguettes, plain white Pullman loaves. I make them all.

And I do my own pizza dough. Make up a triple batch, slow rise it, divide it and freeze. Pizza for a month. I use the Joy of Cooking recipe.

Never had a bread machine, but love my KitchenAid stand mixer.

You could get some river stones like you'd put down in a garden, put them on a sheet tray or half sheet along with a length of steel chain and put the whole thing on the very bottom shelf of the oven. After preheating the oven to bread baking temperature, let the oven cycle on and off a couple of times. When you're ready to bake, put the bread in, and with a Super Soaker water gun spray the stones and chain. Close the oven door quickly and you've gotten the crust you want on your bread. Stand to the side when soaking the stones. Live steam is dangerous. It might also help to have an assistant to close the door.

I like the idea ^

This is undoubtedly okay, but I'm a wimp about spraying a water gun into my electric oven Just seems wrong and makes my hands shake thinking about it.

The internet, where everything is true, also has lots of "advice" about never washing your pizza/bread stone because it will absorb the water then crack/explode when heated. Bad science probably, but I'm not taking chances. Scrubbed and scraped the stone for a long time yesterday after a failed pizza attempt and it's now set aside to dry for a week or so. Just in case.

The pizza stone improves as it conditions. It is absorbant. It is the debris on it that is a part of it's conditioning process. High heat makes it safe. Washing it simply starts the conditioning process from start again, presuming - and hoping - retained water doesn't cause it to split / break. Pizza stones should never be washed.

I'm confused because you seem to want to use the stone to produce steam for pizza? You don't want this - you want dry very intense heat for pizza.

If you want a crisp base for your pizza and are having problems then roll it out on semolina. Ensure you heat the stone for a good hour - possibly using the grill which you can then revert to high oven for cooking the pizza.

If you want steam for bread then using a fine garden mist sprayer for injecting a small amount of steam is unlikely to cause you problems - but you will need a bit more steam for the first 5 to 10 minutes of baking, using the methods previously described.

Good luck.

Good reply.
I think OP is worried re spraying the base/elements of the oven. This could be avoided by simply pre heating an iron griddle, very hot, and placing that on the base. I do it all of the time and its fine.