pleasure of what? Eating bad steaks and undercooked apps?
Or you just like inducing pain? :)

What company do you run, I want to put a huge line through it....

Small outfit. 1 to 5 employees. Believe it or not, there are loads of people who would even take a cut in pay to be able to travel for work with hotel and transportation paid for. I have been that guy for 30+ years. Paid travel is a huge perk in itself for many. Proven every time I have advertised a job. I would not consider hiring someone for a traveling job who considered travel to be a burden. Actually I did once. It didn't work out.

Travel is joy, finding 3 meals for $25 that are actually healthy, is the burden :rolleyes:

I can usually do it, but if not, that's when I open my wallet and add to the $25.

So lets say with 75% travel (weekends included - which we get a bonus for - mind blown?) and $50 a day in food, your going to add $6,843.75 to my salary and cap my reimbursement to $25 a day? Why? What if I only spend $30 one day, $40 the next? This doesn't make any sense.. My food is a write off is it not? Are you claiming the full receipt value, even though your employee is paying half?

I don't it....

We don't get the balance of our un-used food allowance, is that the confusion?

Not...

Packing, waking up at 4am to deal with the airport and a 6am flight across the country to then deal with delayed or lost luggage, car rentals, finding your hotel or work site in a new town, sleeping in hotel rooms away from your family, poor diets that include super-sized portions and massive amounts of sodium...

Then only to re-pack, check out, find a gas station, deal with another airport (with a lot of time guesses), landing around midnight and finally getting to bed around 1am with jet lag.....

My job isn't a constant vacation. There is nothing sexy about the places I visit BUT... I love what I do, I love working for the people I work for and the clients we have. If I could do it around my home and never have to travel I would still be happy as a clam.. As I am in a unique position, that isn't possible, it is a very particular product and as a result I have to travel.

Do I hate traveling? No.. Do I see it as a Perk? No... It is just one of many elements of my job..

I guess it depends on how much and what kind of travel we're talking about. It's nice for a while, but traveling for work gets old rather quick if you're doing it on at least a semi-regular basis.

It does depend I'm sure. Our typical cycle is 14-21 days out, with a minimum of 7, usually more, off work at home. It has stretched to 30-40 days out a few times, but that's very rare. Average about 150 days a year in hotels. Max in one year was 250. The bigger factor is the location, and even that is viewed differently by different employees. It never gets old to me, especially if it's somewhere new. I understand how people with deep roots ie. kids, etc would find it rough, but there are still many of all ages who don't. I also don't envy at all those who do constant multiple short trips.

Taxes
 

One issue with salary vs per diem...per diem is not taxable to the employee. It saves you a little tax. :)

Until you start traveling to the same metro area for more than a year. Then reimbursed expenses begin to have tax implications.

Maybe, but I don't get why mix it up like that, seems like a pointless hassle.

This doesn't make sense for the employee or employer. Per diem for travel is NOT compensation, it's reimbursement of a legitimate business expense that's designed to allow the employee some flexibility while giving the employer some cost certainty while reducing administrative overhead.

Travel is often highly variable over the short and long terms which makes tying your compensation to it an unnecessary and unproductive risk for both parties (my travel month over month can vary 100% and year over year by 50% or more). How would I negotiate that into my compensation in a way that makes sense for both parties?

Do you also have your employees they have to buy their own office supplies? "Really, trust me, it's built in to your compensation." (And why stop there? Why not have employees pay for the office utilities and build that in to their compensation? They are, after all, the ones using up all the heat and A/C.) Not very many high end people are going to want to do that anymore than they're going to want to be told that they're on their own for meals while traveling for the company.

Most businesses which have compensation / reimbursement tax issues, either because of heavy travel to one location or international, pay for the tax accounting services which surround these issues and "gross up" the compensation of employees adversely affected by tax consequences.

While it's expensive and time-consuming for the individual to deal with this, a good accounting firm can make short work of this. If an employee pays roughly 40% of compensation in various taxes (federal, state, social security), a $10,000 tax treatment of compensation as reimbursement can mean $4,000 for the employee. Or put another way, if the employee travels at the employer's convenience to a location for a sufficient period of time to cause his reimbursements of $10K to become taxable, most employers would up the employee's compensation by $4K+ tax on that, so that the employee isn't affected by the travel issue.

All of these are factored into the overall cost of doing business and DO affect employees compensation.

At the end of the day nothing happens in a vacuum,and wildly unpredictable travel expenses means the business has wildly unpredictable expenses.

Do you think employers should pay for meals of all their employees? How is it any different or "unpredictable" than paying for meals when they travel?

At the end of the day a per diem IS part of the overall compensation and a lot of people would rather have cash in their pocket and would prefer to decide what they want to eat.

It's no different than restaurant employees having to buy their uniforms, flair, shoes, or anything else.

It's up to potential employees to decide whether or not the expenses of working are worth the job.

> Don't you have receipts and turn them in with an expense report?

Yes, but ...

I'm supposed to charge ALL meals to the corp credit card. I am required to report them
on my expense report as NON-reimbursable. Then, I am to claim/expense only the daily
per-diem.

The NON-reimbursable gambit is how the employer shakes-down, errr, collects the
rebate from the contract restaurant(s).

> My employees over the years have by and large considered traveling for work
> to be a privilege

Privilege? Really? How many nights/year do they spend away from home? Are these
seasoned/experienced professionals? Or; college hires that are pulses in chairs?

I'm doing 100+ nights/year away from home' for the past 15 years. I don't consider it a
"privilege." It's simply part of my job. It was fun/glamorous for the first 5-6 weeks of
year #1. Beyond that, it's merely a personal cost. My family indulges me, since my job
satisfaction has been high.

One of the "treats" of the job used to be seeking out the hole-in-the-wall restaurants
that do something "special." Sadly; the mom & pop ops, are seemingly, now out of
bounds.

Then there is the matter of road trips. It's quicker to drive FNT-to-DAY than fly. So I
drive. If I need a meal, I've gotta plot-out and seek-out the contract restaurants.
Frankly; I'd like to have the OPTION of eating a Wendy's spicy chicken sandwich & cup
of ice, while driving. But that's not Kosher; or kosher.

At this point, there's the whole matter of what-is and isn't permissible is a goofy
productivity inhibitor. Whoever dreamed-up this [cough] plan, cannot possibly have
traveled significantly. I remember a colleague inquiring about, buying a coach-meal
on a plane? Crickets. What about a meal in the terminal? Crickets.

Me? For now, I am not gonna claim the per-diem. Too many unaddressed nuances
that might result in one of the Whiz Bangs at the Head Shed deciding that I am
falsifying an expense report. The risk ain't worth my job or my pension. Besides, if
I collapse from malnutrition-while-travelling, the hospital (health insurance) will feed
me. <g>

Already answered here:

Many people who travel for work do not sit in chairs or have college degrees.
Specialized training and skills, yes.

Privilege, Really! For many. Not sure why this is such an odd concept, especially to folks who read and post here.

I'm betting someone just got big kickbacks from said restaurants for scheming up this one....:rolleyes:

I think the point that many posters are trying to make is that even with the supposed benefits (e.g., increased pay and the privilege of travel) you are offering, you will still lose (or never acquire) top talent. Maybe you pay a bit more in salary, but many will consider the travel and reimbursement policies, make a judgment on how you treat your employees, and decide that it isn't worth the hassle of dealing with. "Do I really want to work for someone who is going to nickel and dime me?"

Every company nickles and dimes, those that don't tend to go out of business extremely quick.

If you're saying that most companies can't acquire "top" talent because they nickle and dime, then they probably don't want the top talent anyways.

The problem with employees is that they tend to think they're irreplaceable, in a global market no one is THAT talented.

A lot of "top talent" is unemployed because they refuse to accept that they might not be worth as much as they think they are worth; they're only worth what the market will pay.

If the market dictates that the per diem can only be used at certain restaurants, the employees can suck it up or end up unemployed, there will be another dozen people willing to do the job at the pay/compensation offered.

Your first statement, that "every company nickles and dimes..." is demonstrably false. Especially as regards the topic here: How companies handle travel expenses, specifically the use of contract restaurants. The vast, vast majority of companies do not do what you are advocating. Very few companies of any size build per diem in to the base compensation of their employees. More broadly speaking, good companies control their costs well (what I think you mean by "nickle and diming"), but not on the backs of their employees (with some exceptions such as highly cyclical businnesses that also share a lot of the upside with employees)

Truly top-tier talent is never unemployed long if they want a job. There may be people who think they're in that category who can't find work but that's not the same thing.

While there may be dozens of potential employees lining up for every vacancy, very few of them measure up to the standards of successful companies. We have year-old vacancies at my company that we can't find the right people for.

Employee as commodity - got it ^^

No they don't, my company is extremely fair in compensation, benefits, time off and travel policy.

Not irreplaceable, but very successful at what I do (measured). I would estimate it would take maybe up to a year for a new employee to even be comfortable in my position.

I perform to the expectations of what I get in return which is always negotiated before we even start and continually followed up every year in annual performance reviews. If at anytime I could not be compensated as I wish, then I would just find something else. Nothing is below me, I would go get a McJob if that was the only option.

However, as long as what I do is in demand, then I will continue to ask and expect what I get in return for it. It works out for both parties, as it is measurable performance.

Ahhh, no... I got better things to do with my time then worry about stupid policies that people who feel insecure about their position, or need a way to feel "powerful" come up with.

I don't remember who it was in this thread that wanted to pay someone more so they could pay less per diem, apparently, just because it made them feel better?

If there is a logical reason, or significant cost savings that can be measured that does not affect job performance I am all for it, however, the things mentioned here are just silly...

Didn't you start another posting because your former company always flew you up front? And you needed advice because you didn't even know what the coach section even looked like?

... Is your business the Marie Antoinette Cake Company?

I don't remember who it was in this thread that wanted to pay someone more so they could pay less per diem, apparently, just because it made them feel better?

I'm surprised they don't keep the same salary and expect the employees to suck it up and pay for everything themselves. Better yet, why not pay minimum wage with the same expectations? After all, no one should feel entitled to have a job, right? There's a long line out the door of people with PhDs clamoring for any minimum wage job, some money is better than none, it avoids the unemployment office, and it gives the employee something to do, right? :rolleyes:

Nope, wasn't me. I rarely fly for work, and when I do it's out of my own pocket.

I really don't see why people don't see or refuse to see a per diem as nothing more than part of their compensation.

Would you rather have meals reimbursed or more cash in your pocket?

Nickle and diming IS part of life, except maybe to the folks that think the US government losing a trillion dollars that can't be accounted for is part of life.

The degree to which companies nickle and dime is up to them, if they can get away with it they will, if they can't the market will respond accordingly.

If your company says you can get reimbursed at certain restaurants, you can either start job hunting or deal with it.

You're entitled to what you can negotiate, if you suck at negotiating or want meals reimbursed instead of cash in your pocket that's all on you.

Not sure if really sarcastic or being serious, but my company hires entry level work at twice the minimum wage and we get people with PHDS and masters that ARE willing to work for the wages we offer.($12-14 an hour is hardly what I assume most PHDS and people with masters degrees would want to work for)

The job market sucks, even for the highly "skilled" and I doubt most travel jobs are irreplaceable.

Contract Restaurants???
 

My apologies serioustraveler I was mistaken

It's all good, I always find it amusing when I get mistaken for someone else's ramblings, it's almost more amusing than when my words are taken out of context or extrapolated to mean anything except what I've said.

Contract Restaurants???
 

My take is that per diem shouldn't be comp because travel frequency and destination are variable. The employer has the authority to ultimately determine if travel is required. Why should the employee take the risk?

If it is built into my base comp then each time a trip is proposed everyone takes one step back. The "volunteer" gets the honor of higher costs to eat on the road than the office mate remaining in the cube. Or I volunteer for the trip to Tulsa rather than NYC

A per diem (ideally with COLA for location) assigns the employee some limited risk that reimbursement by receipt does not. It is a good balance of risk to authority. I can manage my travel meals to some extent but food in the terminal will always cost more and brown bagging isn't always viable based on location, trip length or whether hotel has refrig

Ohhhh, that explains it, you are being screwed, have some kind of stockholm syndrome going on and expect others should suffer too? Unless your the boss/owner, then that is even weirder.

Because it's not.

That makes sense to you? They equal the same thing. Either the company is paying for the full cost of travel (win) or paying you some obscure amount more so you can pay part of all of the cost of travel (complicated for no reason except for the reason of being complicated).

So... I would rather be compensated for the amount agreed upon before being hired then to have my company cover all travel related expenses as agreed upon before working ;)

Ummmm....

And yet you have to pay to fly yourself................

It actually doesn't suck in my market.... Just sounds like you are in a bad position and think it is OK...

After reading that thread, I guess the next step for the OP employer is to make an arrangement with those contract restaurant on a prix fixe menu (soup of the day, followed by one of the following 3 main courses, soft drink and coffee) to make sure that they don't pay a dime more than what they planned!

braslvr's opinions on employee "perks" are unfortunately very common among small business owners, and is why so many small business stay small.

Why should a top performer have to make that choice?

And by top performer, specifically in a consulting environment, I mean someone who can be billed to a client at $2000+ per day - for which the client gladly pays, because they derive more value than that from the services.

For that person - why would she ever have to make that kind of choice? That person will negotiate a full salary reasonable for that level of performance and expect all allowable travel expenses to be reimbursed in addition - preferably by per diem, if for no other reason than to not have to worry about any of these knucklehead details.

(And "top performer" has equivalent definitions in other settings. For example, if you have a financial auditor, who can "close the books" at a remote site in half the time as anyone else, that person would expect the same environment. And would get it somewhere.)

My company pays all travel expenses, e.g. airline tix, hotel stays, taxis, rentals cars, client dinners, etc. If you are staying a a relative's house during the business trip, you can claim half of the regular hotel cost as your own. Need to keep all the receipts though.

They also provide us with a daily travel stipend that is based on position, e.g. 50 for all non-managerial positions, $75 for section chief, $125 for managers.

Although they don't specifically pay for meals, usually one can keep most of the stipend by eating the breakfast included in the hotel stay, and lunch or dinner functions with the clients. Very rarely do one get to spend all of his/her stipend on food, unless you want to order a full five course room service every night.

There's a Denny's in my town that regularly sends people to the hospital to get their stomach pumped. I'll send you the address if you want, and you "eat" there on your next visit. "Eat" there breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Go all out, and order a bunch each time. Just don't eat any of it and don't give any to the bums outside either. That'd just be mean.

Next day call your employer and describe how horrendously ill you've become from eating at one of their recommended contract restaurants. You read the reviews online about how the Denny's almost kills someone weekly, but you took one for the team to follow company policy. Graphically describe what you'd imagine to be the worse case of food poisoning ever; colors, smells, etc. Randomly yell incomprehensible things about volume of lower GI tract and having a newly found appreciation for the movie The Exorcist. Go to the point of asking them to forward your company life insurance info to your beneficiary. Ask to change your beneficiary to the company to set up a memorial fund so none of your coworkers ever have to eat at Denny's again. Ask them to put you on speaker phone with the whole office so you can tell your tale, and you can live on through your coworkers stories. Then, congratulate them on contracting Denny's to kill you.

You'll likely be back to per diem by the end of the week.