Agree. Cafe Patachou is an exception. Not fancy but great breakfast at a fair price. I have had some good meals at Dunaway's - but inconsistent.

St. Elmo's has to be one of the worst offenders of overpriced/crap food. Lived in Indy for 10 years - sad that this is the "institutional" restaurant of Indy.

Midwest cooking - home and in restaurants is typically awful, underseasoned food. It's like they forget about salt and pepper completely.

Another vote for Chez Panisse

:rolleyes:

I'm probably going to be the only one to say this, but In-N-Out burgers are over rated, service is magnificent, but the food isn't too different and is a little under par compared to some places.

Sure I agree it can be prepared well, and my preferred means is as fajita. However, the way it has been served to me twice in Europe = shoe leather, which is a terrible prep method.

Among new-ish restaurants here in NY, I have to nominate DBGB as over-rated. Service was excellent, food was OK but very overpriced.

Everyone I've ever known who ate at Tavern on the Green came away disappointed, and I've lived here 11 years.

Most over-rated steakhouse in NYC is Ben Benson's - poor service, mediocre food, Midtown-expense-account prices. Another over-rated Midtown place is Cite. My favourite Manhattan steakhouse is actually Craftsteak, although I prefer the Las Vegas location. Wolfgangs and Sparks are also good, although Sparks can be quite loud and I liked it better before Nanny Bloomberg killed off the cigar menu...best cigar I ever had was an Opus X downstairs at Sparks. Of course, it was on expense account so that helped!

The only Ruth's Chris I've ever been to is in Manhattan, so it's possible this location is run to a higher standard because of all the competition, but I've always been happy with it, both for the food and the service. Of course, I've only gone for lunch, and they frequently have (or had, I stopped working in Midtown a few years ago) some very nice lunch specials that are really good value for money. Stupid, annoying name, though.

As for JohnnySegal - you speak blasphemy, sir! :p Yes, there are better burgers, sure (Fatburger, for one), but not at those prices!

And as for the American-palate issue, I'll just say that I've never had a decent steak in Europe. I've had many great meals in Europe, particularly in Barcelona, but every time I've ordered steak I've come away disappointed.

Beef varies by country in Europe (a little less so than in the pre-EU days).

It is possible to have excellent beef in Europe, especially in France. Keep in mind the cuts and the preparation are a little different.

For one thing, the French don't age their beef the way we do in the U,S., so their beef is a little less pungent.

But an excellent Charolais beef is among the best steaks in the world, ranging from the filet mignon, to the Chateaubriand, to the faux-filet, to the entrecote.

Paris has a half dozen outstanding steakhouses. Here is an article written by Mark Bittman in the NY Times in 2007. My personal favorite is Le Relais de Venise. It's very French but it's just a streakhouse:

http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/04/29.../29Choice.html

????????????
like to see other comments about charolias. i only had it once. a steak of some sort in either a michelin 2 or 3* somewhere south of burgundy. was sort of like range fed longhorn, but with less taste and a whole lot tougher. i do not know what cut, but it was supposed to be special, and it certainly cost special.

Charolais is a breed (the cattle are all white) and there is better Charolais and more pedestrian Charolais, just like you have better and worse Angus, for example.

The best Charolais is comparable to the best U.S. prime beef in terms of tenderness. The flavor is excellent but different because the French don't age their beef the way Americans do, so it isn't quite as pungent.

The Charolais is a region of France, named for the town of Charolles, in the Burgundy region.

The best Charolais I have ever had was at Bernard L'Oiseau, one of the best restaurants in the Burgundy region. But there are a number of excellent steakhouses in Paris that specialize in Charolais.

We also have Charolais in North America, especially Canada, but I have always found the French breeds tastier.

Haven't eaten in Nobu, but my friends give it very good reviews, and I enjoyed Nobu Next Door in NYC. That said, neither I nor they were paying....

My vote goes to Joel Robuchon MGM Las Vegas. Absolutely, utterly horrible. I still can't bring myself to try L'Atelier in London as a result.

Colm

Picasso at the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Beautifully presented food, tiny portions, big check and we left hungry.:td:

But did the food taste good?

L'atelier in Vegas was extremely good. Not as expensive as the Joel Robuchon (I've eaten at both), but the L'Atelier was a much better value.

+1. I have been to Lugers about 3 times. Each time, I have been totally--I mean totally--underwhelmed.

My vote is for Charlie Trotter's. I was not impressed at all by our meal there for $155/prix fixe menu.

Currently one star. I went when it had two stars--some parts of the meal were excellent, others average. Servers were pleasant, helpful and attentive without being intrusive. I didn't think it was unusually expensive for a two-star place.

I have a Charolais ranch near to me, and angus as well ^ Both are good.

+1

Another overrated Philly restaurant is Bookbinders, did not think much of their seafood.

My vote for NYC restaurant goes to 21 Club, don't know how this place is still in business.

Bookbinder's is closed...Chptr 11. But I never knew it to be highly-rated, just a "famous" institution and notorious tourist trap.

It had previously been closed from 2001 to 2005.

21 Club is not a restaurant, it's quasi social club for power lunches. Another, slightly different example of this strange type of restaurant is Elaine's, one of the most exclusive and cliquish of NYC "scene" restaurants, where the food receives a generous 13 in the Zagat (it's barely a step above Chef Boyardee).

Places like this (I would include Cipriani's in this list) stay open because they cater to the social mores of a certain class of New Yorkers, and the aspirations of their wannabes.

Obviously, not a memorable meal in terms of food. I do remember a peeky toe crab dish, which was the teeniest peeky toe thing I have ever seen presented on a plate.

Some places you just have to love a little bit because of their history. Elaine's qualifies as does 21. Tadich in San Francisco is another wonderfully overrated restaurant which is still rather lovable, and I cannot tell you why.

Personally, I'm not into Elaine's, although I suppose I can understand the appeal. Of all the establishments in this general genre (21, Tadich, Polo Lounge in Beverly Hills, St Elmo's in Indy, etc) it easily has the worst food.

These places are about a certain culture of power and influence that comes to us from a different era. The testosterone these places emit is awesome.

I have walked into 21 with a group of big shots (of which I was not one) and we were made to feel like the kings of the world.

I think that is the appeal.

It's certainly not about the food.

Every big city in America has at least one old-school power joint like this, with the old waiters in black bowties, the thick porcelain plates, lots of stiff drinks and overpriced old-school eats.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually a fan of places like this.

I certainly prefer the scene at Tadich, or the orginal Palm in NYC, or Galatoire's to the scene at Chez Panisse, which, inexplicably, receives a very high rating for bland, tasteless food.

Chez Panisse, of course, doesn't belong in the same category as the other places I've mentioned, but it's also a shrine, a tribute restaurant. CP, though, pays hommage to the so-called hippie sensibility (which is, in actually nothing more than BoBo [Bourgeois Bohemian] sensibility).

When Alice Waters opened CP, her mesclun salad with goat cheese was a revolutionary item in the American culinary canon. Now you can find it at Wendy's.

At least at Galatoire's or 21, there is a certain bonhomie, while the ambiance and mood at Chez Panisse is painfully aloof and withdrawn.

That's why Chez Panisse still gets my vote for the most overrated (28 in Zagat!)

Not expensive for a two-star, you are right. But very expensive for the value we felt we were getting.

Cheers,
T.

Agreed - next time try Redd right down the street. We've been there twice and both times the meals were excellent.

Sad thing is that St. Elmo's was very highly rated in NW's in flight magazine. I don't remember if it was a top 10 restaurant or top 10 steakhouse list. I was a bit shocked to see a local eatery listed. I've heard nothing but mediocre reviews from people who've actually been there so I'm not sure how they got their high rating.

Do you know if 14 West is any good? It seems gourmet in appearance but looks can be and usually are deceiving.

Would strongly recommend against Redd myself. The place is noisy, the food average at best and considering the area it is in, very disappointing. The waiters have at best a passing knowledge of a wine list that while fair is not astounding. Presentation of the food is also very pedestrian. Bread provision was spotty and the water was refilled with the glass on the table.

Overall it was highly recommended to me and I cannot for the life of me understand why. If you are in the area, spend the 20 minutes driving and skip over to Sonoma and get to the Girl and the Fig. Far superior. Redd is a total waste of money and time.

Anything on the Bund in Shanghai and most other non-Chinese restaurants in the city. Only several Japanese and Korean places manage to keep quality levels high and offer reliable tasty food.

I was unimpressed with La Table de Joel Robuchon in Paris (it felt quite 'basic' and the food wasn't particularly tasty, although not horrible), but I enjoyed L'Atelier in London much more.

Actually, I am adding La Table de Joel Robuchon in Paris to my 'over-rated' list.

French Laundry
L'Atelier Joel Robuchon Paris
Alex at Wynn
Commis - only Michelin star-rated restaurant in the SF East Bay - also

I agree. Now, you aren't the only one to say this. The price, however, makes it not a big deal.

With respect to a few others already mentioned:

(1) Chez Panisse. I don't think it is overrated. I think people expect more than it is. I do not think it ever made itself into something it isn't, but people expect some sort of artisan fare. I have had some delicious meals there, which have included eating vegetables I normally would never eat, but when they are from some fresh and excellent garden, why they are actually tasty. Also, the maximum is $95 for the weekend, and includes 4 courses plus an aperitivo. The wine list is also quite reasonable given the quality - much can be had for the $50 range (and many, for less, and of course, many for more).

(2) Commis. It is interesting and not that expensive for what it is. If it cost more, I'd call it overrated. It certainly isn't "meal of a lifetime" caliber, but it is quite enjoyable.

(3) Tadich. Another "it is what it is" and that is, a decent piece of fish in a place that doesn't change much. I also don't think they've tried to make themselves into something they aren't. But all the guide books do.

(4) Anyone from elsewhere with a Vegas restaurant is probably way overrated.

Burger King.

"Have it your way"? Please.

Emeril's in Orlando. Service was mediocre, particularly on a slow weekday. But when I ordered half a duck as entree, I didn't expect to get 2 hindquarters on the plate. :rolleyes: This was totally contrarary to our experience at New Orleans, Miami Beach, and Delmonico's in LV.

+1 for Ruth's Chris. I'm surprised no one mentioned Morton's yet. We had a 10pm reservation at the Chicago restaurant. They were late seating us by 30 minutes, and our waiter promptly told us that we must order everything at once because the kitchen is closing. :mad:

I personally like Redd. Didn't know refilling outer with glass on the table makes it overrated.

McAllisters? Seriously? Indy isn't the culinary capital of the world, but if you're using McAllister's deli and Wolfgang Puck's as your benchmarks, you really need to get out more.

Here are some starters (just off the top of my head) for good eats in Indy:

Downtown/Mass Ave/Fountain Square

Euphoria/Creations Cafe, 14 West, Zest, Zing, R Bistro, Scholars Inn, Santorinis, The Bosphrous, Yats, Papa Roux. For more Chain like, there's Fogo De Chao, Adobo, Barcelona Tapas, and Harry & Izzy's (Not St Elmos). I also like the Circle City Grill in the Marriott of all places. Really good.


Broad Ripple

Meridian, Binkley's, Usual Suspects, Midtown Grill, Canal Bistro, the Brugge, Mama Carrollas. For pizza, Binkley's, Bazbeaux, Some Guys, or Union Jacks.

North Side

Shanghai Lil's, Peterson's, Oakley's, Istanbul Cafe.

Indy is addicted to chain restaurants. But there are good places out there.

Burger King may be poor, but when is it ever highly-rated?

Agreed that Chez Panisse does not claim to be anything other than what it really is.

On the other hand, Chez Panisse does not rate itself, and it does currently have a 28 rating in the Zagat's and 1 star in the Michelin Guide, both of which are far in excess of the rating having some nice, fresh, bland and tasteless vegetables should merit, even if the wine list is fairly priced (although I would hardly call $50 bottles of wine a bargain, even at a fine restaurant).

Every time I have eaten at Chez Panisse I feel like I'm eating at the home of an acquaintance who is a very enthusiastic gourmet but never really pulls it off quite right.

It's awkward to admit that the temple and high-priestess of California cuisine just don't do a very good job of preparing the wonderfully fresh ingredients, but they just don't.

Agreed, if it is from a bottle opened for you. This was a large steel pitcher.:rolleyes:

Overrated comment is based on supposed quality of food per many reviews I have read and the actual product and its fairly middle of the road ambiance.

Just not on a par with many, many restaurants in the area, and very far in performance and presentation from many reviews I had read that had made me very keen to go. As it turns out the ratings were way off base.

I've never been to Broad Ripple and probably never will go. Just a place that never really interested me. Being on the south side the north side is an unlikely dining location for me. Downtown is doable. 14 West caught my eye and I've considered checking it out. Have you actually been to it or are you basing listing it on what other people have said? I don't know how many times I've heard a place was great just to find out they stink. McAllister's stinks. I've been told Sisters Place was a great place for breakfast. Turns out that place is bland and boring and tastes like any other breakfast joint. I tried Jimmy John's a few times based on recommendations. Bland and flavorless just like every other sub shop.

There was a place I used to go to and that was the New Bethel Ordinary. The place is famous for their pizza but I quit going. The dining area was often filthy and the bathroom area was nasty with an open pipe venting sewer gas right out into the open. I cannot believe they'd keep the public area looking like that. Cannot imagine what the kitchen looks like.

There was the press about the problems with City Market. I've eaten there twice. Horrible food. Horrible and expensive. Had what was supposed to be a Philly cheese steak sandwich. Apparently these people have never seen a real Philly cheese steak sandwich.

Seems everywhere you eat around here tastes like every other place around town. Like they all get their same food from the same cans from the same suppliers. No imagination. There are other places I've tried but almost without exception it has been nothing but disappointments. The Polo Club restaurant was a big disappointment too. Very uninspired menu.

So if the "Downtown/Mass Ave/Fountain Square" recommendations are places you've been to and know are seriously good eats (sorry had to say it lol) I'd certainly give one or two a try. 14 West still being probably top of my list.

BTW is Buca di Beppo any good?

Jimmy Johns? Buca? Are you pulling my leg? I don't want to come across as condescending, but are you in your teens? Early 20's?

I've been to and enjoyed every place I've listed. They all have their pros and cons, but each one is good. Each one has at least one outstanding something.

I've left a bunch of places off the list. They include just about every chain restaurant in town. There's nothing outstanding on the southside, with the possible exception of Byrd's Cafeteria in Greenwood.

Back on topic: Really underwhelmed with Patina in Los Angeles when I went last year. I'm a fan of Joachim Splichal and the Pinot Brasserie in the Venetian in Las Vegas, so I had high hopes. It may just have been an off night, but nothing the four of us had blew us away. Service was really good, as was the setting in the Disney Concert Hall. The wine list was outstanding. Wish the food was as good as everything else. in other words: overrated.

Actually I'm 40. And I think Jimmy Johns is bland and I've never been to Buca. Is that such a shock? What is so out there that you think I'm pulling your leg?

I've never been to Byrd's either. I've never gone because with a name like that I think bland cafeteria food like Old Fart (Country) Buffet.

I know it is out of season right now but is the rooftop restaurant in Fountain Square any good?