The Merger - The bad and Jeff you better listen
Jan 23, 2009, 5:32 am
#31
Join Date: May 2004
Location: LAX
Programs: CO Platinum HHonors Diamond Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,312
But much of this is the way of the world as prices inflate and the only way to overpower all of the new inconveniences and slights is by spending more and more money in order to make one's self comfortable. I guess the good old times are mostly gone and what has happened here is a microcosm of what is happening everywhere.
This isn't a microcosm of what's happening everywhere. Research the competition and what your volume of business will get you elsewhere.
Right now, DL is lowering their total value proposition for my total purchasing and their competitors are much more attractive vendors. In my case, CO is now greatly differentiated and much better. For others, moves to UA, AA, or even WN seem to be en vogue. Some will analyze the situation and decide they can't move away from DL or that the value proposition is still the best one for them. In any event, I think we can all agree that all of their moves thus far have reduced DL's value and perception in the eyes of the consumer -- they've done some things to drive some business away, but nothing to attract any new business thus far. Who the hell is steering the ship?
peace,
~Ben~
Jan 23, 2009, 7:52 am
#32
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 302
I started to quote your post and point out some things, but then I thought to myself "I like indufan and don't want to make the wrong impression".
If you are going to send this to Jeff, I would stongly suggest you remove the juvenile styled language and street talk and make it more professional. Your points are good points except for suggesting that they raise the bar to 100k.
Waiting to hear if you get a response.
If you are going to send this to Jeff, I would stongly suggest you remove the juvenile styled language and street talk and make it more professional. Your points are good points except for suggesting that they raise the bar to 100k.
Waiting to hear if you get a response.
Jan 23, 2009, 8:16 am
#33
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: CO, DL, US, AS, CO, BA, LH, SQ, WN
Posts: 438
Right now, DL is lowering their total value proposition for my total purchasing and their competitors are much more attractive vendors. In my case, CO is now greatly differentiated and much better. For others, moves to UA, AA, or even WN seem to be en vogue. Some will analyze the situation and decide they can't move away from DL or that the value proposition is still the best one for them. In any event, I think we can all agree that all of their moves thus far have reduced DL's value and perception in the eyes of the consumer -- they've done some things to drive some business away, but nothing to attract any new business thus far. Who the hell is steering the ship?
peace,
~Ben~
peace,
~Ben~
When Jeff, Richard and Edward went to bed last night the only prayers they said were for the purpose of hoping that all other carriers would follow them by instituting ant-best-customer (and ant-customer-in-general) policies just like Doug Parker and US have been doing for well over two years, while adding no value to their offering, and instituting a policy of charging for anything and everything that has no cost to Delta.
Their entire problem, 100% guaranteed, is solved by doing the one major business improvement that costs them nothing, and that is to stop attempting foolishly to .......ize supply and demand and instead optimize the actual supply and demand forces that exist and vary in their's and most other businesses. Every single one of their arguments for mistakenly doing what they are doing is solved by not having an 80.1 load factor and quite literally, letting frequent flyers use their miles without traversing the obstacle course that Jeff built and is continuing to make more impossible.
Every airline CEO in this country should have seen months ago that reducing capacity while reducing value and identity with customer needs and desires is a disaster of seismic proportions.
It is fascinating to see that DL is now doing (following) what US is doing (DL's smallest competitor), despite the fact that DL could have saved millions of dollars for shareholders by just allowing US to acquire them.
Anne
Jan 23, 2009, 8:21 am
#34
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MCO
Programs: DL-DM/1MM, HILTON-DIA, .HYATT-DIA/GLOB , IHG-PLT,HERTZ 5*, NATIONAL ES
Posts: 8,691
Upgrades are the main reason I stayed with DL this year. Take that, and I have no reason to stay. I am certainly not paying more just for the possibility of an upgrade.
Jan 23, 2009, 9:23 am
#35
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PHL
Programs: AA,DL,HH
Posts: 20
I fly out of PHL and as of last year I gave up on US which was difficult since they go everywhere I needed to go. For the first half of 08 I flew AA and the in July I switched to Delta. Now out of the 3 I would say Delta is the best. I occasionally fly AA when I have to go to ORD but after the fiasco last week of receiving a phone call at 11:30 PM telling me my early morning flight the next day was leaving 2 hours late which would have made me late for my meeting I have sworn off AA. I ended up flying UA to Chicago ans was unimpressed. One thing I notice that Delta does that AA and UA don't is fill all of the seats in FC with elite via upgrades. With both AA and UA you need those upgrade certs. I have tried WN into Midway and it was pretty good. Overall I will stick with Delta.
Jan 23, 2009, 9:23 am
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: IND
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I am not sending it anyplace. Jeff says he reads FlyerTalk. I think it's apparent that he can find this if he wants to. As for the language, it's just me. It might be a little bolder and more arrogant that my regular posts but it isn't changing. It is what it is. Sorry it's not adult enough for you.
Jan 23, 2009, 11:07 am
#37
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 628
With the cut backs in direct flights via Delta from/to MCO (Orlando), I've still been working whenever possible to still fly Delta even if it isn't the cheapest route and even when an alternative airline has direct. However, if they greatly reduce the upgrade potential/cut out the L, U, T's from it, I'll either find another program, or just free wheel around more without any attempt to favor Delta.
Jan 23, 2009, 12:07 pm
#38
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1K (MM), DL, AA, AS, HHonors, SPG, Kimpton, Hyatt, IC PC, Marriott Titanium (LT PLT), Hertz PC
Posts: 7,231
Since a lot of the information about the DL Skymiles program seems to be coming from the NW boards these days, I thought that I would pass along that at least on the NWA side, this rumor has been dispelled for now. There are no current plans to implement this into the WP program (which, I'm guessing means that there are no current plans to implement it into SM). The use of the word current is ominous... See the NWA boards for more information.
Jan 23, 2009, 12:14 pm
#39
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlántida, Canelones, Uruguay (MVD) and rarely GNV
Programs: AV LifeMiles, CM ConnectMiles, BA Exec Club. Former:ex-ASGold, ex-UA1K, ex-COPlat, ex-NWGold.
Posts: 2,673
Finally a rational thread (or at least OP) about what is wrong with some of the new changes by DL to SM and WP.^
Jan 23, 2009, 12:29 pm
#40
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: So Fla & NYC
Programs: DL DM/2MM, UA MM, BV LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 23,766
...Right now, DL is lowering their total value proposition for my total purchasing and their competitors are much more attractive vendors. In my case, CO is now greatly differentiated and much better. For others, moves to UA, AA, or even WN seem to be en vogue. Some will analyze the situation and decide they can't move away from DL or that the value proposition is still the best one for them. In any event, I think we can all agree that all of their moves thus far have reduced DL's value and perception in the eyes of the consumer -- they've done some things to drive some business away, but nothing to attract any new business thus far. Who the hell is steering the ship?...peace,
~Ben~
~Ben~
Jan 23, 2009, 12:34 pm
#41
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: He who dies with the most miles wins!!
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I have heard nothing but constant .....ing and whining and complaining --- and yes mostly from NW elites --- since this merger. It's got to be hard to Delta to see through any of the comments to find out what really matters. They are painting the planes, get over it. They are going to move planes, get over it. The NW brand is going away, get over it. ATL is an airport, it gets people around, get over it. Surely, I have missed a few other complaints but I think you get my point.
Yep, I am biased and opinionated but honestly I have the confidence to say that I know what is really important to the common Medallion and what does matter. So here goes:
Redeposit and rapid redemption fees. Honestly, I don't care that much. But, it's apparent that there are a lot that do. How many customers can you afford to lose for these extra dollars? How about just slightly less loyal? That one is a harder one to figure. What is the rapid redemption thing 21 days? How about 7? I absolutely understand that some people use these things from short notice business travel to avoid the huge Y fare. But most of those would be inside 7 days. Are there other options like charging a fee only if the fare would be M class or higher? I just bought a U on two days notice last month. Redeposit fees I have less heartburn over. The one time I that I had to redeposit miles, I would have gladly paid.
Upgrading LUT faresWhile posted a while ago not too many noticed then. Then someone brought it recently and it's gaining traction. I don't believe for a minute that you are going to eliminate upgrading LUT fares. It's time for communication,to put this rumor to bed right now. Now, let's assume that you are considering it. First you better stop. I am as loyal to anyone but I would probably have to leave over this one. I thought eliminating the K+ upgrade thing was the worst thing that Delta ever did. I had my company trained to buy K+ fares for me and we (me and the company) felt we got extra value for that fare especially since it could be upgraded at the time of booking. You will never get it back. Not from me. Not from thousands of others. Oh sure, there will be people that have to buy K+ because it is the only ones available and others with money to burn that don't give a damn but largely it won't work.
The Award CalendarFix the Son of a ..... Gun. Personally, I think you get a raw deal on award availability. I redeemed 4 tickets in 2008 for exactly the dates, times, and locations that I wanted. And all of the surveys that I have read come out pretty good for Delta. So, a few weeks ago, I came up with an idea "The Great Delta FlyerTalk Award Search". No one else knows it yet, but we are going to do our own survey. But I can't tell everyone to do it because the freaking calendar is so messed up. I mean fix and fix it now. I mean I am talking like by next Friday. If whoever can't get it done by then, fire them and give it to someone else until the next Friday, then fire them. Otherwise, turn the calendar off and go back to what it was before. Leo Mullin actually built some of the best technology stuff that money could buy not all that long ago. How did Delta fall behind? I don't think it is as terrible as some indicate here but there are issues even outside the award calendar.
"Best of" program I think that is what Oscar called it in the World Traveler and Sky Magazine. Where? Seriously, I was OK with the status quo for benefits but you insisted that we are were going to see the best of and make the best FF program out there. Honestly, I think NW members are a little full of themselves on how great everything was. But they do get 125% bonus miles...that sounds like a "best" to me. Of course, I think it is ironic that NW people complaint about Delta members getting all of these extra miles when they get them on every flight. I would love to see what "best" is. Right now, it doesn't look like you are going to hold onto the customers that you have...and yes, especially NW ones. If it was really the best, then maybe, you get some come over from other airlines....after all you have the biggest baddest route network going.
Fourth TierSince I can make 100,000 miles, I am all for moving PM back to that level. It doesn't appear that I can do anything to get myself up to the White Envelope status. Sorry, I am not going to get a AMEX card for SkyMiles. I have two million in the bank, I don't need more. I think some think that some of the PM benefits are being taken away so they can be given back to the 100,000 mile level but you had better communicate things like this quicker before you lose customers which leads to the last point.
Communication I know FlyerTalk causes you some unique issues. You have things that aren't ready for dissemination but we find out about them anyway. I guess I just suggest that you move faster on some of this stuff. I am sure that some of these decisions have to made on not that much notice. Directly to Jeff (my cell phone number is in your Private Message Box if you want to talk), I don't have any problem with you. And I know your hands are tied by the economy and decisions that are made by people that are higher than you. And yes, the breath of FlyerTalk is limited but they do sit beside people all day all every day on your planes. Guess what, they are most likely sitting beside another elite member. Guess what that they are likely to talk about these days? And Jeff, I think you have got a bad rap among people here but I will criticize a little bit. Apparently you aren't conveying the message you need to in just the right words. We see you have hired an External Communications person. I think a lot of people here at FlyerTalk think that means Director of FlyerTalk relations when we know that it doesn't. I do believe that you need someone here on most days or at least once a week. It doesn't have to be you. This whole board is well enough know in your industry (via mostly Randy) that I think it would be appropriate for Richard Anderson to make a statement here. I hope he doesn't think it is beneath him to make a statement on an internet board. It would show that he is in touch with his customers.
I will get off my soapbox for now. Heaven knows what the response from the FlyerTalk community will be to these threads. I know I am tired of hearing the same old rhetoric. I have slammed NW elites a few times in here, so I am sure that won't go over too well. It's just MHO...or maybe not so humble in this case.
The link to the good thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...me-saving.html
Yep, I am biased and opinionated but honestly I have the confidence to say that I know what is really important to the common Medallion and what does matter. So here goes:
Redeposit and rapid redemption fees. Honestly, I don't care that much. But, it's apparent that there are a lot that do. How many customers can you afford to lose for these extra dollars? How about just slightly less loyal? That one is a harder one to figure. What is the rapid redemption thing 21 days? How about 7? I absolutely understand that some people use these things from short notice business travel to avoid the huge Y fare. But most of those would be inside 7 days. Are there other options like charging a fee only if the fare would be M class or higher? I just bought a U on two days notice last month. Redeposit fees I have less heartburn over. The one time I that I had to redeposit miles, I would have gladly paid.
Upgrading LUT faresWhile posted a while ago not too many noticed then. Then someone brought it recently and it's gaining traction. I don't believe for a minute that you are going to eliminate upgrading LUT fares. It's time for communication,to put this rumor to bed right now. Now, let's assume that you are considering it. First you better stop. I am as loyal to anyone but I would probably have to leave over this one. I thought eliminating the K+ upgrade thing was the worst thing that Delta ever did. I had my company trained to buy K+ fares for me and we (me and the company) felt we got extra value for that fare especially since it could be upgraded at the time of booking. You will never get it back. Not from me. Not from thousands of others. Oh sure, there will be people that have to buy K+ because it is the only ones available and others with money to burn that don't give a damn but largely it won't work.
The Award CalendarFix the Son of a ..... Gun. Personally, I think you get a raw deal on award availability. I redeemed 4 tickets in 2008 for exactly the dates, times, and locations that I wanted. And all of the surveys that I have read come out pretty good for Delta. So, a few weeks ago, I came up with an idea "The Great Delta FlyerTalk Award Search". No one else knows it yet, but we are going to do our own survey. But I can't tell everyone to do it because the freaking calendar is so messed up. I mean fix and fix it now. I mean I am talking like by next Friday. If whoever can't get it done by then, fire them and give it to someone else until the next Friday, then fire them. Otherwise, turn the calendar off and go back to what it was before. Leo Mullin actually built some of the best technology stuff that money could buy not all that long ago. How did Delta fall behind? I don't think it is as terrible as some indicate here but there are issues even outside the award calendar.
"Best of" program I think that is what Oscar called it in the World Traveler and Sky Magazine. Where? Seriously, I was OK with the status quo for benefits but you insisted that we are were going to see the best of and make the best FF program out there. Honestly, I think NW members are a little full of themselves on how great everything was. But they do get 125% bonus miles...that sounds like a "best" to me. Of course, I think it is ironic that NW people complaint about Delta members getting all of these extra miles when they get them on every flight. I would love to see what "best" is. Right now, it doesn't look like you are going to hold onto the customers that you have...and yes, especially NW ones. If it was really the best, then maybe, you get some come over from other airlines....after all you have the biggest baddest route network going.
Fourth TierSince I can make 100,000 miles, I am all for moving PM back to that level. It doesn't appear that I can do anything to get myself up to the White Envelope status. Sorry, I am not going to get a AMEX card for SkyMiles. I have two million in the bank, I don't need more. I think some think that some of the PM benefits are being taken away so they can be given back to the 100,000 mile level but you had better communicate things like this quicker before you lose customers which leads to the last point.
Communication I know FlyerTalk causes you some unique issues. You have things that aren't ready for dissemination but we find out about them anyway. I guess I just suggest that you move faster on some of this stuff. I am sure that some of these decisions have to made on not that much notice. Directly to Jeff (my cell phone number is in your Private Message Box if you want to talk), I don't have any problem with you. And I know your hands are tied by the economy and decisions that are made by people that are higher than you. And yes, the breath of FlyerTalk is limited but they do sit beside people all day all every day on your planes. Guess what, they are most likely sitting beside another elite member. Guess what that they are likely to talk about these days? And Jeff, I think you have got a bad rap among people here but I will criticize a little bit. Apparently you aren't conveying the message you need to in just the right words. We see you have hired an External Communications person. I think a lot of people here at FlyerTalk think that means Director of FlyerTalk relations when we know that it doesn't. I do believe that you need someone here on most days or at least once a week. It doesn't have to be you. This whole board is well enough know in your industry (via mostly Randy) that I think it would be appropriate for Richard Anderson to make a statement here. I hope he doesn't think it is beneath him to make a statement on an internet board. It would show that he is in touch with his customers.
I will get off my soapbox for now. Heaven knows what the response from the FlyerTalk community will be to these threads. I know I am tired of hearing the same old rhetoric. I have slammed NW elites a few times in here, so I am sure that won't go over too well. It's just MHO...or maybe not so humble in this case.
The link to the good thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...me-saving.html
Jan 23, 2009, 12:44 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: MCO
Programs: DL DM,MM; AS; USeless Air, HHonors Diamond, Starwood Plat, Hyatt Gold
Posts: 564
For me, the "value proposition" still remains with DL because my first consideration always will need to be the ease and comfort of going where I need to go and getting there with the least possible irritation. Such things as mileage awards and elite benefits need to take subordinate positions in my equation.
I totally agree! Flying to work every week beats the heck out of sitting on a freeway commuting twice a day. I fly enough that I'm nearly always upgraded (98%) and the bonus free vacations don't hurt either. I'm always treated very well on-board. No complaints here.
Jan 23, 2009, 12:44 pm
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: Fallen Plats, ex-WN CP, DYKWIW; still a Hilton Diamond & Club Cholula™ R.I.P. Super Plats
Posts: 25,415
Since a lot of the information about the DL Skymiles program seems to be coming from the NW boards these days, I thought that I would pass along that at least on the NWA side, this rumor has been dispelled for now. There are no current plans to implement this into the WP program (which, I'm guessing means that there are no current plans to implement it into SM). The use of the word current is ominous... See the NWA boards for more information.
I'll believe this rumor is dead if there are still LUT upgrades 1/3/5 days out in 2011.
Leo Mullin & Rob Border weren't operating in a vacuum. The people who gave them their bad ideas & helped to implement them are still alive and well in the DL corporate bureaucracy.
Jan 23, 2009, 12:47 pm
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: Fallen Plats, ex-WN CP, DYKWIW; still a Hilton Diamond & Club Cholula™ R.I.P. Super Plats
Posts: 25,415
For me, the "value proposition" still remains with DL because my first consideration always will need to be the ease and comfort of going where I need to go and getting there with the least possible irritation. Such things as mileage awards and elite benefits need to take subordinate positions in my equation.
Jan 23, 2009, 12:50 pm
#45
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1K (MM), DL, AA, AS, HHonors, SPG, Kimpton, Hyatt, IC PC, Marriott Titanium (LT PLT), Hertz PC
Posts: 7,231
I wouldn't read that into it all. The "rumor" was also that it required some serious implementation at the DL end. They're unlikely undertake simultaneous development efforts on both platforms.
I'll believe this rumor is dead if there are still LUT upgrades 1/3/5 days out in 2011.
Leo Mullin & Rob Border weren't operating in a vacuum. The people who gave them their bad ideas & helped to implement them are still alive and well in the DL corporate bureaucracy.
I'll believe this rumor is dead if there are still LUT upgrades 1/3/5 days out in 2011.
Leo Mullin & Rob Border weren't operating in a vacuum. The people who gave them their bad ideas & helped to implement them are still alive and well in the DL corporate bureaucracy.