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Delta Continues to Adjust to Unprecedented Fuel Costs with Addition of Fuel Surcharge

Delta Continues to Adjust to Unprecedented Fuel Costs with Addition of Fuel Surcharge

 
Old Jun 27, 2008, 9:52 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by sxf24
When I can pay less than $200 in taxes and fees for an award ticket worth about 25 times that amount, I think I'm getting a pretty good deal.
Baaaaaaaa. Come along to the slaughter, little lamb.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 9:54 am
  #92  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Before claiming whether or not there is "any basis for a lawsuit", a person ought to try to become familiar with how some terms and conditions are not necessarily enforceable in all jurisdictions, with the legal concepts of contra proferentem, and with judicial determinations regarding contracts of adhesion.
Tell you what. If anybody successfully challenges this in court, I will eat my hat. It won't happen.

Originally Posted by HeathrowGuy
Delta may indeed change the terms of the program. What they cannot do is falsely advertise something as free.

The moment Delta levies fuel surcharges for its own award flights, SkyMiles is no longer a program that offers free travel. It's as simple as that.
Do they really advertise it as "free"? By that, I mean, do they ever actually put out an ad that doesn't have the fine print of "taxes and fees may apply"?
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 9:56 am
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Jaimito Cartero
Baaaaaaaa. Come along to the slaughter, little lamb.
ROTFLOL

... you said it so well. ^^
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:00 am
  #94  
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If you put a lobster in cold water, and then turn the heat on...

I'd bet that DL will increase these taxes (probably double them), within the next year. They've made these fees moderate so that many frequent flyers won't complain. Then, when they lose 45 gazillion dollars the next quarter, they'll have another reason to ask for more.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:01 am
  #95  
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Originally Posted by humanoid94
The frequent flyer game is basically over.
I agree. And I'm not really going to cry about it. I'll miss the good, old days a little bit, but life goes on.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:03 am
  #96  
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Originally Posted by pbarnette
Tell you what. If anybody successfully challenges this in court, I will eat my hat. It won't happen.
Did you already eat your hat? You fail to make reference to the class action lawsuit and settlements involving at least one US airline that showed how some terms and conditions are not necessarily enforceable in all jurisdictions and how the legal concepts of contra proferentem and judicial determinations regarding contracts of adhesion come into play -- as they have already at least once with a US airline.

Originally Posted by pbarnette
Do they really advertise it as "free"? By that, I mean, do they ever actually put out an ad that doesn't have the fine print of "taxes and fees may apply"?
See my previous comment? Just because a company such as this advertises one thing in a highlighted form and then tries to deny delivering, by hiding behind fine print or its structural equivalent, won't necessarily save a company such as this from being found to be engaged in wrongdoing.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:04 am
  #97  
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Originally Posted by pbarnette

Do they really advertise it as "free"? By that, I mean, do they ever actually put out an ad that doesn't have the fine print of "taxes and fees may apply"?
Airline ads often feature that sort of fine print, but bear in mind a fuel surcharge is netiher a tax nor a fee. It's nothing but "fare" by another name.

Northwest Airlines tried a similar stunt with me on the Bucharest deal way back when (trying to call a zero base fare ticket with a fuel surcharge 'free'), and even their legal department recognized the error of that interpretation, with the end result benig my flying on the date, route, and mileage-upgraded cabin of my choosing...
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:05 am
  #98  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
It is retroactive in that it applies to miles already earned by SkyMiles members..
And so does any and every other change "apply" to miles earned previously. Under the Terms and Conditions, they can do that without notice.
"Delta and its program partners reserve the right to change program rules, benefits, regulations, Travel Awards, fees, mileage Award levels, and special offers at any time without notice. "
Stinks, but there you have it.

Originally Posted by GUWonder
Are you certain that for tickets issued before August 15th that voluntary award ticket reissues -- including for reroutings -- won't necessarily trigger the fuel surcharge?

I would not be surprised if a Skymiles member-initiated award ticket change after August 15th for tickets issued prior to that date would also trigger the fuel surcharges on tickets already issued or issued prior to August 15th.
Maybe, but that's not retroactivity, that's new activity in some respects. Plus, as I noted above, they can change anything, anytime, without evne notice, with respect to "program rules, benefits, regulations, Travel Awards, fees, mileage Award levels, and special offers".

No one is more sick about this than me, but this is what we have to expect from SkyMiles from now on.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:08 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Delta is trying to have it both ways in the same press release, but there is a problem with that since these fees will also apply to already ticketed award travel when a change is made that involves a reissuing of the ticket.
When a firm advertises two contradictory items -- as DL has done above -- a court or administrative regulatory body may well determine that such a company is engaged in false advertising or other unlawful deceptive trade practices if it advertises one thing and then tries to contradict its advertisement in the structural equivalent of fine print, including such as the terms and conditions.
This gets down to whether or not the reissue is a new activity or a modification of an old one. If new, post August 15, you are undeniably going to get hit. Delta's going to argue that reissuance of a ticket is a NEW issuance of an ticket based on an OLD confirmation/reservation and thus because it is NEW gets hit with the NEW rule.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:10 am
  #100  
 
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Originally Posted by pbarnette
Tell you what. If anybody successfully challenges this in court, I will eat my hat. It won't happen.
Sign me up for a fedora-lunch too. This a non-starter, given the SkyMiles Terms and Conditions "we can change anything, anytime, without notice" clauses.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:11 am
  #101  
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
And so does any and every other change "apply" to miles earned previously. Under the Terms and Conditions, they can do that without notice.
"Delta and its program partners reserve the right to change program rules, benefits, regulations, Travel Awards, fees, mileage Award levels, and special offers at any time without notice. "
Stinks, but there you have it.
On the contrary, that's not it. I suggest understanding the concepts of "how some terms and conditions are not necessarily enforceable in all jurisdictions, with the legal concepts of contra proferentem, and with judicial determinations regarding contracts of adhesion".

Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
Maybe, but that's not retroactivity, that's new activity in some respects.
It's retroactive application, as you seem to imply in your very own words above by saying "new activity in some respects" -- which suggests that it is mostly not "new activity".

Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
Plus, as I noted above, they can change anything, anytime, without evne notice, with respect to "program rules, benefits, regulations, Travel Awards, fees, mileage Award levels, and special offers".
As I noted above, the above claim is not true anymore than one and all are willing to let it be. Again, some terms and conditions are not universally enforceable, and there is also the matter of how courts and administrative regulatory bodies deal with teh concepts of contra proferentem and contracts of adhesion as well.

Originally Posted by cyncialflyer
No one is more sick about this than me, but this is what we have to expect from SkyMiles from now on.
Some of us have expected this -- and even worse to come -- from DL.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jun 27, 2008 at 10:19 am
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:12 am
  #102  
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
This gets down to whether or not the reissue is a new activity or a modification of an old one. If new, post August 15, you are undeniably going to get hit. Delta's going to argue that reissuance of a ticket is a NEW issuance of an ticket based on an OLD confirmation/reservation and thus because it is NEW gets hit with the NEW rule.
That is the game DL is going to play.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:15 am
  #103  
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
Sign me up for a fedora-lunch too. This a non-starter, given the SkyMiles Terms and Conditions "we can change anything, anytime, without notice" clauses.
That language is to discourage those who are ignorant of the basic principles of contract law from thinking that they have rights that can be asserted against Delta. Conversely, those of us who can claim Contracts Law as our single best course in law school don't bat an eye in asserting that such language will prove unenforceable in many instances (without giving opinion or advice as to whether it's enforceable here).
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:17 am
  #104  
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
Sign me up for a fedora-lunch too. This a non-starter, given the SkyMiles Terms and Conditions "we can change anything, anytime, without notice" clauses.
It seems like a few of you here have failed to eat your hat from the previous time around. I suggest looking at class action lawsuits and settlements from at least one airline that tried to hide behind terms and conditions but still ended up having to pay for their attempts to pull a fast one over consumers.
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Old Jun 27, 2008, 10:17 am
  #105  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Did you already eat your hat? You fail to make reference to the class action lawsuit and settlements involving at least one US airline that showed how some terms and conditions are not necessarily enforceable in all jurisdictions and how the legal concepts of contra proferentem and judicial determinations regarding contracts of adhesion come into play -- as they have already at least once with a US airline.
If you are so confident that you can win, I assume you will be filing a lawsuit soon? I will watch with keen interest.

Feel free to think that the courts are somehow going to save the FF game for you. I'll spend my time and energy adjusting my own behavior to maximize my benefits under any new scheme.
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