pbarnette

Again, for purchased tickets, DL quotes the full fare for pax originating in Europe. I checked it last night. So, no, you don't have a leg to stand on.

That being said, I'm sure you are back to your myopic ramblings about reward tickets. This is a completely separate issue. There is nothing dishonest about what DL is doing there, either. They are charging industry-standard rates for FF tickets originating in Europe. Apparently, the other US carriers are so desperate for EU FFers that they choose to offer fewer fees as an incentive. That doesn't make DL dishonest. It might make them more expensive, but it doesn't become fraud.

And, once again, your beloved NW, effectively, does the exact same thing. European residents cannot join WP. They must join Flying Blue. US residents who move their address to Europe are switched to Flying Blue. They are, therefore, subject to the same fees on award tickets. Even for revenue tickets, NW tries to shunt European residents to KLM. So there is your other US carrier. For someone so caught up with concepts of dishonesty, you seem to be perfectly happy to exclude any and all evidence disproving your pre-conceived notions, even when such evidence is made explicitly clear to you. That seems pretty dishonest to me.

Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM

What a load of BS. The constant litany of ungrounded and libelous accusations against DL is becoming tired and tedious.

In addition to supporting pbarnette's comments I would say the following.

1. There are costs involved in making Europe the kind of livable place it is. Those costs are for everyone including a company with increasing operations in Europe such as DL. If you aren't prepared to pay those costs and think that everything is better on the other side of the pond, why not move back to America then?

2. Those FFers such as yourself who are hustling the programs and the airlines by maintaining residencies and accounts on multiple continents are a small minority. Your complaints stem from the fact that your ability to abuse the airlines (live de facto in Europe while crediting a program not allowed in Europe) is threatened to be reduced. Talk about dishonesty in spirit.

We may not like the fuel surcharges approach and its impact on the value of award tickets, but DL is certainly not the major culprit here and making false accusations rather than seeking remedy at a national and industry level is a bit like Don Quijote fighting windmills. Funny and sad.

GUWonder

Are you sure about that? Does DL disclose the full fare inclusive of the fuel surcharge -- which add directly to DL's revenue line on DL's financial statements -- in the fares that come up upon launch of a fare search on in the GDS?

Last I checked, the fuel surcharges not being included in the loaded fares on GDS was part of the problem.

soitgoes

While there are a few exceptions, most of the LCC's do the same fuel surcharge bit as the legacies and many advertise extremely low fares on routes but make few seats available at those rates.

The WorldPerks terms state:
"The WorldPerks program is open to any individual with a mailing address in North America or in any country that has not prohibited participation in frequent flyer programs, with the exception of countries in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent. If you change your mailing address to Europe, Africa, the Middle East or the Indian Subcontinent, you can no longer earn miles in the WorldPerks program. Instead, your account should be transferred to Flying Blue, the frequent flyer program of our alliance partners, Air France and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. "

The key thing is mailing address, not residency. One breaks no rules by maintaining a mailing address in North America and continuing to participate in WorldPerks.

pbarnette

I was talking strictly about the DL website. But, if the GDS systems don't pick up the fully-loaded cost properly, that is the failing of the GDS, not a failing of DL. Plenty of 3rd party websites, including Expedia, ITA, and Orbitz give you the fully loaded price from the start, so there are obviously no significant technical hurdles preventing travel agents from giving you a price inclusive of surcharges. I just don't see why anybody should care about the nitty gritty of what DL wants to name the various components of the ticket price.

I'm not saying it breaks any rules. Indeed, I have been known to play the mailing address game myself to maximize the value I get from my FF programs.

But let us be honest here for a minute. One would have to guess that the percentage of European residents with a US mailing address is exceedingly low. Accordingly, NW does prevent virtually all European residents from joining WorldPerks. Heck, you can't even buy a ticket from NWA.com with a European-addressed credit card. Therefore, virtually all European residents are forced to abide by KLM's rules, not NW's. This means that virtually all European residents pay the very same fuel surcharges that Carolinian repeatedly whines about.

To repeatedly rail (as Carolinian does) against DL for applying rules on ex-European award tickets, which are wholely consistent with the rules applied by virtually all of the European carriers is more than a little silly. And it is incorrect to call it bait and switch. Finally, to repeatedly refuse to admit that NW, by virtue of the mailing address limitations, makes virtually all Europeans play by the same rules is intellectually dishonest.

majorwibi

Seems to me that this is a search engine issue not a DL specific issue...

GUWonder

In an age where multiple residences and mutiple citizenship is not legally prohibited, your post is full of holes.

European residents can certainly join WorldPerks .... conditioned upon such persons having a US mailing address.

There are many European residents who are also American residents/citizens who can join WorldPerks and do maintain accounts under the WorldPerks rules .... just like there are many American residents/citizens who are also European residents/citizens who can join Flying Blue and maintain accounts under Flying Blue rules.

GUWonder

Your prior post only referred to DL, and DL does have its fares displayed in the GDS without the fuel surcharges included on the initial fare displays. Of course this is not just DL doing this, but of course DL is part of the problem whether some here want to acknowledge it or not.

GUWonder

It's a DL-specific issue as we are talking about fare surcharge amounts applicable to this specific airline's own fares and how this specific airline chooses to have its fares advertised. Of course there are other airlines who take -- more or less -- the same general approach to how fares are advertised, but that doesn't make them any better.

Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM

There is of course some validity to the arguments about the search engines and the bait and switch base fares and certainly on paying surcharges on award tickets. Quite frankly, the current situation of showing base fares where still allowed or still done is probably helping to keep up demand and not completely scare lots of customers away by being honest with them about how expensive flying is becoming.

Most airlines have their fuel surcharges pegged to the price of oil. When or if oil comes down, so do the (presumably temporary) fuel surcharges. AFKL for example has raised and lowered theirs many, many times over the years.

The alternative would be to require airlines to post only all-in fares, hopefully even including all relevant taxes such as today's retail prices posted inclusive of VAT. Let's say that some international governing body with teeth actually requires tomorrow that all airlines never let anything else be seen but the total net-net price and also to do away with sneaky pay-for-service fees above the already paid ticket price including drinks, luggage, etc. Prices for everyone would really have to increase dramatically. Especially millions of Americans who are now flying by keeping one eye shut on the total costs they can't really afford would likely decide to stop flying altogether. Today's drop in demand and cuts in service would seem extremely minor by comparison. And, when or if the oil prices drop, would the total ticket prices then drop as quickly as pre-defined fuel surcharge formulas?

So, is that the answer? Global regulation on pricing?
If so, why not go the next step and require that airlines continue to serve those communities across the entire country being dropped today like hot potatoes, that prices actually cover the cost of doing business, allow for a fair profit and for airlines and ATC systems to make the needed investment in new equipment. Then the kerosene could be paid out of ticket price as it should, decent service could be returned to non-third world levels, employees could be paid enough to eat, aircraft could be cleaned and properly maintained and our Apollo-era ATC system could be brought up to modern levels. Hey, wasn't that the way things worked 30+ years ago?

sxf24

While DL could certainly address the issue by including the fuel surcharge in its published fares, this would put them at a significant disadvantage in GDS systems for European originating travel.

How the fares are displayed in the GDS is ultimately a GDS issue.

DL does not hide, or play and switch, with fuel surcharge on fares it publishes, either through its site or call center.

pbarnette

Oh please. I have made it clear that I am aware that some European residents have North American mailing addresses, and that such people can join WorldPerks. I just don't think it is that common.

So, yes, saying that European residents cannot join WP is not accurate. However, I think we can safely say that NW actively discourages European residents from joining WP or even buying tickets from them. But, hey, feel free to dwell on the fact that some people have two mailing addresses, rather than honestly engaging the topic.

No, DL is not really part of the problem. DL is fully above board about how much the flight costs on their own website, and they provide all such information to the GDS systems. The problem is with the GDS. The information is readily available for the GDS to display the all-in price. For reason's unknown to me, whoever programmed the GDS decided to display only the base fare.

sfozrhfco

Fuel surcharge just added to Skymiles Award tickets

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/080627/145434.html

jbatl

Delta News Release.

$25 domestic, $50 international on award tix.

EDIT: Missed the ongoing discussion. Mods, thanks for the quick merge.

chicagorich

"We hope this is temporary, and should fuel prices subside from current levels, we will reevaluate this surcharge.”

Uh huh....I bet.

And no exemption for elites.? Uh oh...

.