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Peter Greenberg, a travel guy who reports on the Today Show and also has his own web site reports the following on this issue, "For those in the airline business who will inevitably charge me for violating their rules, I strongly argue that I have done no such thing. I am flying on tickets I purchased legitimately, under my own name and on the dates and times specified on the tickets. If I choose not to use the return portions on any of those original tickets, that has always been my prerogative."
And has anyone out in FT land ever had their FF account closed or banned from an airline or had their tickets canceled for back to back to bookings? Frankly I have done it many times as well as purchasing a RT ticket when I only used the outbound because it was much cheaper than buying a one way. Sam |
What the OP is proposing is NOT a back-to-back ticket. Spiff's response accurately described a back-to-back ticket. The airlines definitely frown upon those.
The term for the OP's itinerary is "nesting," which is perfectly legal. |
Originally Posted by samftla
(Post 9713577)
Peter Greenberg, a travel guy who reports on the Today Show and also has his own web site reports the following on this issue, "For those in the airline business who will inevitably charge me for violating their rules, I strongly argue that I have done no such thing. I am flying on tickets I purchased legitimately, under my own name and on the dates and times specified on the tickets. If I choose not to use the return portions on any of those original tickets, that has always been my prerogative."
And has anyone out in FT land ever had their FF account closed or banned from an airline or had their tickets canceled for back to back to bookings? Frankly I have done it many times as well as purchasing a RT ticket when I only used the outbound because it was much cheaper than buying a one way. Sam Peter can make such claims until he's blue in the face. However, the airline can still issue a debit memo and/or take action on his FF account if they so choose. It is not his perogative to change or ignore the rules of the contract that he agreed to when he bought the ticket. There have been accounts of airlines acting on repeated use of throw-away ticketing. A colleague describes how AA met some of her co-workers in DFW who had been routinely using throw-away ticketing to decrease their costs. The AAgent walked them to the flight they had been habitually "missing" with the not-so-unsubtle hint that it would be a shame to refare all those tickets that they had been dropping the last segment on. ;) Does it happen immediately and always? No. Make a habit of it, however, and sooner or later, someone is likely to notice and take some kind of action. |
Originally Posted by keeton
(Post 9713615)
The term for the OP's itinerary is "nesting," which is perfectly legal.
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Originally Posted by Duke777
(Post 9713393)
Crap...
So assuming I'm not bypassing any min. stay rules, this kind of ticketing won't get me in trouble? I'm flying PDX-MSP-AMS-MAD on NW Aug 25 MAD-AMS-PDX on NW Dec 17 and while I'm studying in Madrid MAD-AMS-SEA-PDX on NW Oct 2 (saturday night stay) PDX-AMS-MAD on NW Oct 5 I'm studying abroad and have to come home for my sister's wedding. I really don't want to get in trouble, nor lose the miles that will help me get Gold this year. I would've flown DL, but the flight times didn't work for the wedding and only B fare tickets were available for the long stay round trip. |
Well what if you don't throw it away?? What if you use the other portion as an MR and take the trip anyway...
AAA-BBB-AAA Leave Monday Return on Monday (planned).... BBB-AAA-BBB Leave Wednesday Return Sunday night to meet the Monday morning flight From ticket one? Hence meeting both Saturday night requirements and taking full advantage of the Miles.... I'm paying for both tickets and flying both tickets, why is this illegal??? What grounds do they have to do penalize me? It's not like they are penalized if my bagge is lost, or my flight is delayed or some FA just don't show up to work... we get rebooked or refunded and they get no penalty at all.... I know I'm pi**ing in the wind here. |
Originally Posted by amps
(Post 9714016)
Well what if you don't throw it away?? What if you use the other portion as an MR and take the trip anyway...
AAA-BBB-AAA Leave Monday Return on Monday (planned).... BBB-AAA-BBB Leave Wednesday Return Sunday night to meet the Monday morning flight From ticket one? Hence meeting both Saturday night requirements and taking full advantage of the Miles.... I'm paying for both tickets and flying both tickets, why is this illegal??? What grounds do they have to do penalize me? It's not like they are penalized if my bagge is lost, or my flight is delayed or some FA just don't show up to work... we get rebooked or refunded and they get no penalty at all.... I know I'm pi**ing in the wind here. ticket 1: AAA-BBB-AAA Has a Saturday night stay requirement ticket 2: BBB-AAA-BBB Has a Saturday night stay requirement AAA-BBB Monday, ticket 1 ok BBB-AAA Wednesday, ticket 2 not ok, violates ticket 1's Saturday night stay requirement if this Wednesday is 2 days after Monday instead of 9. AAA-BBB Sunday, ticket 2 ok, meets ticket 2's Saturday night stay requirement BBB-AAA Monday, ticket 1 ok, meets ticket 1's Saturday night stay requirement As others have pointed out, this is not illegal, but it is against the airline's CoC. You used all the coupons, but you circumvented the minimum stay requirements of ticket 1. You are not free to meet some of the rules in the CoC and disregard others. The airline is also required to meet all of its obligations of the CoC, not just ones it feels like honoring. ;) |
Originally Posted by Spiff
(Post 9713906)
There have been accounts of airlines acting on repeated use of throw-away ticketing. A colleague describes how AA met some of her co-workers in DFW who had been routinely using throw-away ticketing to decrease their costs. The AAgent walked them to the flight they had been habitually "missing" with the not-so-unsubtle hint that it would be a shame to refare all those tickets that they had been dropping the last segment on. ;)
And I have been doing this for more years with DL and AA and never a peep from either of them. Sam |
Originally Posted by samftla
(Post 9714600)
I have heard many such claims, strange none are ever first hand accounts, only from a friend or in your case a colleague etc...but frankly never met or heard from someone directly that this ever happened to. Strange how those people never post a response. I seriously think that if this was really an issue the airlines are policing we would be hearing first hand accounts at FT.
And I have been doing this for more years with DL and AA and never a peep from either of them. Sam |
Originally Posted by samftla
(Post 9714600)
I have heard many such claims, strange none are ever first hand accounts, only from a friend or in your case a colleague etc...but frankly never met or heard from someone directly that this ever happened to. Strange how those people never post a response. I seriously think that if this was really an issue the airlines are policing we would be hearing first hand accounts at FT.
And I have been doing this for more years with DL and AA and never a peep from either of them. Sam actualy this happened to me 3 years ago on delta. Delta charged back my corprate travel and corp travel came after me asking for me. Project partner was not too happy : - ) delta made both tickets Y so, for a ticket that was on avg 400, it costs us around 900. at the end we paid around 1200 extra! |
Nothing illegal at all with what the OP is suggesting.
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Originally Posted by Spiff
(Post 9714790)
Whatever. The number of people who have gotten in trouble for back-to-back, throwaway ticketing, or other practices that circumvent or break the fare rules is not zero. I trust my friend. Do what you will, it makes no difference to me - I don't work for AA or DL.
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Originally Posted by amps
(Post 9715994)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by breaking ticket rules. In my post you replied that ticket #2 breaks ticket #1 rules, however since ticket 1 is not and never would be tied to ticket 2 then I have not ever broken any rules. What differnce does it make where I am in between my ticketed itin? I trust you since you are a MOD here and and based your credintials a major FF, but you can surely understand that we ARE in the right here, regardless of what are motives are. For somebody to say that we screwed the airlines and violated the CoC is very hard thing to prove. Maybe I was just doing it to prove to my company I was saving money and I was getting a MR out of the deal. Company was happy and I was getting a bonus. Not so much to screw the airline out of it.
I don't even think you're screwing the airlines. If you beat the system, great, wonderful, stick it to The Man, I couldn't care less. It doesn't bother me at all. However, if you do back-to-back ticketing to circumvent minimum stay requirements, then you're not in the right, you're just managing to get away with it. Yes, in your example you are blatantly breaking the rules of the minimum stay requirements of your first ticket by purchasing a second ticket on the same carrier that returns you to your origin before you have met that first ticket's minimum stay requirements. It may sound crazy or unfair, but it is in the fare rules that you agree to when you purchase a restricted ticket vs an unrestricted ticket. (notice the difference in price? ;) ) |
Originally Posted by fb3003
(Post 9715155)
actualy this happened to me 3 years ago on delta. Delta charged back my corprate travel and corp travel came after me asking for me. Project partner was not too happy : - )
delta made both tickets Y so, for a ticket that was on avg 400, it costs us around 900. at the end we paid around 1200 extra! Sam |
Just for the sake of clarity, here's the citation from Delta's domestic contract of carriage.
http://images.delta.com/delta/pdfs/c...rriage_dom.pdf 3) Delta specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as: A) Back to Back Ticketing - The issuance, purchase or usage of flight coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares, or the combination of two or more round trip excursion fares end to end on the same ticket for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements. B) Throwaway Ticketing - The issuance, purchase or usage of round excursion fares for one way travel. C) Hidden City/Point Beyond Ticketing - The issuance, purchase or usage of a fare from a point before the passenger's actual origin or to a point beyond the passenger's actual destination. 4) Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, Delta has the right in its sole discretion to: A) Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary, B) Confiscate unused flight coupons, C) Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's baggage, or D) Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary. |
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