Reasons to hate RJs
Feb 17, 2004, 6:40 am
#16
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Devils Advocate ON:
>>Really pretty common sense, but it's also been scientifically studied and proven<<
Then why are there not hundreds of crashes around the world at flight schools daily? Statistically speaking they should be falling out of the sky.
There are also those who might prefer the younger Doctor (less actual hours) who is freshly schooled in the latest techniques, procedures, etc instead of the older Doctor still doing things the way he did in 1970.
>>Really pretty common sense, but it's also been scientifically studied and proven<<
Then why are there not hundreds of crashes around the world at flight schools daily? Statistically speaking they should be falling out of the sky.
There are also those who might prefer the younger Doctor (less actual hours) who is freshly schooled in the latest techniques, procedures, etc instead of the older Doctor still doing things the way he did in 1970.
Feb 17, 2004, 7:46 am
#17
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will post elsewhere
[This message has been edited by atl runner (edited Feb 17, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by atl runner (edited Feb 17, 2004).]
Feb 17, 2004, 9:47 am
#18
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There are statisitcs that support this. Most student pilots stay pretty safe because 1) they're usually flying with an instructor; and 2) spend more time in the traffic/landing pattern than those who aren't undergoing instruction.
It's when they get that PP license that they become somewhat less safe. The 50-350 hour private pilot is considered to be in "the killing zone". After 350 hours the accident statistics start to trend downward.
American Eagle considers first officer positions for those with 850 hours or more. One needs 1500 hours minimum to get an ATP license, though, and 100% of all commercial FIC airline pilots have that rating.
On another note, commercial airline pilots tend to make fewer landings than their private pilot counterparts - most of their time is logged enroute. The landing pattern can be a dangerous place to be and GA pilots tend to spend more time there which, in additon to relative inexperience, contributes to more accidents.
RMX
It's when they get that PP license that they become somewhat less safe. The 50-350 hour private pilot is considered to be in "the killing zone". After 350 hours the accident statistics start to trend downward.
American Eagle considers first officer positions for those with 850 hours or more. One needs 1500 hours minimum to get an ATP license, though, and 100% of all commercial FIC airline pilots have that rating.
On another note, commercial airline pilots tend to make fewer landings than their private pilot counterparts - most of their time is logged enroute. The landing pattern can be a dangerous place to be and GA pilots tend to spend more time there which, in additon to relative inexperience, contributes to more accidents.
RMX
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Pointfreak!:
Devils Advocate ON:
>>Really pretty common sense, but it's also been scientifically studied and proven<<
Then why are there not hundreds of crashes around the world at flight schools daily? Statistically speaking they should be falling out of the sky.
There are also those who might prefer the younger Doctor (less actual hours) who is freshly schooled in the latest techniques, procedures, etc instead of the older Doctor still doing things the way he did in 1970.
</font>
Devils Advocate ON:
>>Really pretty common sense, but it's also been scientifically studied and proven<<
Then why are there not hundreds of crashes around the world at flight schools daily? Statistically speaking they should be falling out of the sky.
There are also those who might prefer the younger Doctor (less actual hours) who is freshly schooled in the latest techniques, procedures, etc instead of the older Doctor still doing things the way he did in 1970.
</font>
Feb 20, 2004, 7:25 pm
#19
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FlyingDoc:
There is real evidence to back up my contention that experience is important in such technically demanding professions. I'm certainly not a pilot, but I am a physician and in my profession, there's strong evidence that experience is really important in patient safety. ...</font>
There is real evidence to back up my contention that experience is important in such technically demanding professions. I'm certainly not a pilot, but I am a physician and in my profession, there's strong evidence that experience is really important in patient safety. ...</font>
Feb 20, 2004, 9:00 pm
#20
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Back to why I hate RJs... Monday was fine for me, I was sitting next to a thin person. Last night, thin person too, but I felt like I was sitting on a toilet seat with a thin cover on it. There was absolutely no padding on the seat and there was a hole in the middle of the seat (which reminded me of the toilet seat analogy). It was a very uncomfortable 2 hours.
Feb 20, 2004, 11:02 pm
#21
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hazmo:
None of these people (and I'll name names, Comair, ASA, SkyWest, Chataqua, and Atlantic Coast) seem to take owership of delays or seem to respect that many of us here have flown Delta metal for years.
</font>
None of these people (and I'll name names, Comair, ASA, SkyWest, Chataqua, and Atlantic Coast) seem to take owership of delays or seem to respect that many of us here have flown Delta metal for years.
</font>
Yes, the reservation system is the same and yes, you get your almighty SkyMiles points and there is even some link in ownership (Comair and ASA). But...they are separate companys operated by separate employees with separate standards (usually much lower) of operation. It's not Delta.
Feb 20, 2004, 11:52 pm
#22
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by keeton:
And that's a very good point that many people here seem to overlook. When you fly a RJ, you are NOT FLYING DELTA!
...they are separate companys ... It's not Delta.</font>
And that's a very good point that many people here seem to overlook. When you fly a RJ, you are NOT FLYING DELTA!
...they are separate companys ... It's not Delta.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
2000 - Comair was acquired by Delta in January for approximately $1.8 billion to operate as a wholly owned subsidiary in the Delta Connection program. </font>
2000 - Comair was acquired by Delta in January for approximately $1.8 billion to operate as a wholly owned subsidiary in the Delta Connection program. </font>
Feb 20, 2004, 11:54 pm
#23
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by keeton:
And that's a very good point that many people here seem to overlook. When you fly a RJ, you are NOT FLYING DELTA!
Yes, the reservation system is the same and yes, you get your almighty SkyMiles points and there is even some link in ownership (Comair and ASA). But...they are separate companys operated by separate employees with separate standards (usually much lower) of operation. It's not Delta.</font>
And that's a very good point that many people here seem to overlook. When you fly a RJ, you are NOT FLYING DELTA!
Yes, the reservation system is the same and yes, you get your almighty SkyMiles points and there is even some link in ownership (Comair and ASA). But...they are separate companys operated by separate employees with separate standards (usually much lower) of operation. It's not Delta.</font>
AND???
Feb 21, 2004, 3:59 am
#24
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I just switched a MLB/ATL/JFK booking over to Song MCO/JFK next week when I found out that the two flights were on crjs...Ok, MLB/ATL I can understand but what is this nonsense of putting the mini metal on the ATL/JFK run?
I am small but would be nursing the back from hell by the time I got to my overseas flight....ooouchhh!
It is an extra hour of driving to MCO but think I will be happier when I get on my overseas flight......
I am small but would be nursing the back from hell by the time I got to my overseas flight....ooouchhh!
It is an extra hour of driving to MCO but think I will be happier when I get on my overseas flight......
Feb 21, 2004, 8:10 am
#25
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by par8thed:
Actually, it is the same company. Comair is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Delta, meaning that Delta owns the brand, operates the company, and has majority shareholder stake. </font>
Actually, it is the same company. Comair is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Delta, meaning that Delta owns the brand, operates the company, and has majority shareholder stake. </font>
Feb 21, 2004, 10:19 am
#26
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The problem with the wholly-owned subsidiaries and the other DL connection carriers is that they can have different rules and different standards for employees. Those having flown many ASA operated flights (like myself) have a great distaste for the DL Connection trademark. I cringe when I hear those words (as well as the word enhancement).
I know buying ASA and ComAir was part of some great DL master plan, but I wish DL would have gutted almost all of the employees of ASA and the GAs for ComAir. This is just my experience from traveling them in the 90's, so to any current employees, please don't be offended by my out-dated opinion. Note that I have refused to fly regional jets on non-regional routes. I consider DHN-ATL, ILE-DFW or SYR-LGA regional routes, not DFW-OAK or ATL-JFK!!. And since I have not had to fly regional routes in several years, I really have little recent experience on DL Connection carriers and I am sure things are much better now.
Getting back to the topic. Another of my Reasons to hate RJs? Because it was a "bait and switch". They replaced the smaller turbo-props on regional routes first and received much positive feedback. Much of the positive feedback back then was due to not having to sit staring out the window in ATL's Concourse C. How many of us sat there watching ASA mechanics nurse an Embraer Brasilia back to health for a 1 hour flight (which was already 2 hours delayed)?
Sadly, DL then used this positive feedback to justify extending the use of RJs to routes that should be serviced exclusively by mainline metal.
[This message has been edited by traveling_again (edited Feb 21, 2004).]
I know buying ASA and ComAir was part of some great DL master plan, but I wish DL would have gutted almost all of the employees of ASA and the GAs for ComAir. This is just my experience from traveling them in the 90's, so to any current employees, please don't be offended by my out-dated opinion. Note that I have refused to fly regional jets on non-regional routes. I consider DHN-ATL, ILE-DFW or SYR-LGA regional routes, not DFW-OAK or ATL-JFK!!. And since I have not had to fly regional routes in several years, I really have little recent experience on DL Connection carriers and I am sure things are much better now.
Getting back to the topic. Another of my Reasons to hate RJs? Because it was a "bait and switch". They replaced the smaller turbo-props on regional routes first and received much positive feedback. Much of the positive feedback back then was due to not having to sit staring out the window in ATL's Concourse C. How many of us sat there watching ASA mechanics nurse an Embraer Brasilia back to health for a 1 hour flight (which was already 2 hours delayed)?
Sadly, DL then used this positive feedback to justify extending the use of RJs to routes that should be serviced exclusively by mainline metal.
[This message has been edited by traveling_again (edited Feb 21, 2004).]
Feb 21, 2004, 11:08 am
#27
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dedehans:
It is an extra hour of driving to MCO but think I will be happier when I get on my overseas flight......</font>
It is an extra hour of driving to MCO but think I will be happier when I get on my overseas flight......</font>
Dedehans, I can't understand the CRJs out of MLB, all flights I'm on (CRJ and MD88) are always overbooked. It's unusual when DL is not asking for volunteers to get off the flight. DL can put a few more MD88s in but they refuse to because as I've been told, DL doesn't want to add flights to a regional airport when there is a large airport closeby.
Most of my coworkers have already abandoned MLB for MCO. I am still one of the only holdouts. I don't like the extra hour drive to MCO, the extra time needed for parking, security, etc. But MLB is not serving me well with the few number of flights at business times. I will probably soon use MCO again. I think our fine airport in MLB has its days numbered.
Feb 21, 2004, 1:14 pm
#28
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FlyingDoc:
DL is now flying regional jets into 97 of the 245 cities it serves and is the largest US regional jet carrier.
Reasons to hate RJs from the passenger/frequent flyer perspective:
- No chance at an upgrade. DL can now give unlimited upgrades to make Medallion members think that the program is improved, but with RJ service into 40% of its market (soon to be over half), the unlimited upgrades that DL started this year are useless and are a major hoax foisted on its most loyal customers (we'll give you unlimited upgrades, of course you can't use them because most of our aircraft, i.e. RJs, have only one cabin.
- Seating discomfort. It is torture flying in one of these planes. The bottom seat cushion is about a 1/2 inch piece of foam rubber on top of metal. And as with most other DL coach seating, the pitch is miserable.
- RJs are much noisier than mainline jet aircraft, sound as loud as 90 dB is routinely found in the cabin of RJs. Unions for AA flight attendants have raised this issue with American Eagle.
- No overhead bin space, must put "carryon" luggage in the back. Not only does this restrict what you can have in the cabin with you, but also leads to delays while waiting for "carryon" baggage to be unloaded
- Less experienced pilots. Certainly one of the reasons why airlines like RJs, they pay these folks less, but as the proliferation of these aircraft continues, I believe that it will lead to significant safety concerns.
- Low ceilings. Even those of average height can't stand straight in most of these aircraft. I am 5'10" and my head touches the ceiling of the Embraer 145. Continental restricts flight attendants on RJs to no taller than 5'9".
- In many airports, must climb stairs and walk outside on the tarmac to board these aircraft. An inconvenience to most of us, a major impetiment to the handicapped and ill.
Certainly many of the majors are making moves toward RJ rather than larger jet service; none more than DL. I suppose if all the carriers are flying RJs to a given destination and there is no choice, then there's no choice. But I will always choose to avoid a RJ is there is a choice, even if that means I have to fly cattle car Southwest over a cramped, cattle car DL RJ. </font>
DL is now flying regional jets into 97 of the 245 cities it serves and is the largest US regional jet carrier.
Reasons to hate RJs from the passenger/frequent flyer perspective:
- No chance at an upgrade. DL can now give unlimited upgrades to make Medallion members think that the program is improved, but with RJ service into 40% of its market (soon to be over half), the unlimited upgrades that DL started this year are useless and are a major hoax foisted on its most loyal customers (we'll give you unlimited upgrades, of course you can't use them because most of our aircraft, i.e. RJs, have only one cabin.
- Seating discomfort. It is torture flying in one of these planes. The bottom seat cushion is about a 1/2 inch piece of foam rubber on top of metal. And as with most other DL coach seating, the pitch is miserable.
- RJs are much noisier than mainline jet aircraft, sound as loud as 90 dB is routinely found in the cabin of RJs. Unions for AA flight attendants have raised this issue with American Eagle.
- No overhead bin space, must put "carryon" luggage in the back. Not only does this restrict what you can have in the cabin with you, but also leads to delays while waiting for "carryon" baggage to be unloaded
- Less experienced pilots. Certainly one of the reasons why airlines like RJs, they pay these folks less, but as the proliferation of these aircraft continues, I believe that it will lead to significant safety concerns.
- Low ceilings. Even those of average height can't stand straight in most of these aircraft. I am 5'10" and my head touches the ceiling of the Embraer 145. Continental restricts flight attendants on RJs to no taller than 5'9".
- In many airports, must climb stairs and walk outside on the tarmac to board these aircraft. An inconvenience to most of us, a major impetiment to the handicapped and ill.
Certainly many of the majors are making moves toward RJ rather than larger jet service; none more than DL. I suppose if all the carriers are flying RJs to a given destination and there is no choice, then there's no choice. But I will always choose to avoid a RJ is there is a choice, even if that means I have to fly cattle car Southwest over a cramped, cattle car DL RJ. </font>
Feb 21, 2004, 3:50 pm
#29
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Contrary to your posts, here's a reason to LOVE RJ's. Flying NW's RJ85.
They seat 12 First class and 59 economy passengers. With NW or CO elite status, you are pretty likely to get first class service and food. First Class pitch 37", 21" width, economy pitch 33", 19" width.
Jiburi '04
They seat 12 First class and 59 economy passengers. With NW or CO elite status, you are pretty likely to get first class service and food. First Class pitch 37", 21" width, economy pitch 33", 19" width.
Jiburi '04
Feb 21, 2004, 4:31 pm
#30
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by par8thed:
Actually, it is the same company. Comair is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Delta, meaning that Delta owns the brand, operates the company, and has majority shareholder stake.
Found here. </font>
Actually, it is the same company. Comair is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Delta, meaning that Delta owns the brand, operates the company, and has majority shareholder stake.
Found here. </font>
The travesty is now these alternate carriers are intermingled with the DL's schedules (e.g. for a given route, the 2:30 flight may be mainline while the 4:00 flight is a connection carrier) - and, of course, there is no break in price for the lower level of service.