PMU Waitlisted - 777 with 45+ BE Seats Free
 

I really can understand why people are leaving Skymiles.. really.. medallions in particular.

I am travelling on a FULL FARE Y ticket to NRT from ATL in a month or so. Currently, DL's seat map shows only 5 seats assigned going to Asia and a paltry 3 taken coming back. This means over 45 seats are available in each direction. 45 seats!!

DL always sends me thank you notices for giving them my business, and makes me believe I am a valued customer. Yet, according to their own rules, I cannot currently use a PMU, upgrading a "Y" fare at time of purchase. It's not available, and you'll have to be put into waitlist limbo.

Availability of upgrades? Sure we all know they hold the right to reserve seats for paying passengers. But where does the common sense kick in? If a PM comes along and meets their criteria for using a PMU - with 7/8 of BE free, then why the **ll do I have to be waitlisted...?

DL doesn't get it. Don't advertise a program which doesn't work the way you advertise it. Tell me you won't upgrade the Y fare, or better yet don't even send me any PMUs. More than likely, i'll clear the waitlist - but one has to ask oneself - where does DL greed, versus the desire to keep a good YBM PM begin and end?

Anyone else had any logic defying experiences like this?

Actually, I had the opposite situation happen last August. I bought an M class ticket TLV-AMS-ATL-FLL-ATL-FCO-TLV. While there are no upgrades from TLV to Europe, all my other segments were upgraded on the spot. Of course, I "bought" the upgrades with miles, so that might be the difference.

I have always been able to use all my PMU's for upgrades trans-atlantic, and have never had problems upgrading the flights I wanted at the time of booking. However, I am also almost always able to make my reservation a minimum of 3 months ahead, but on a few occaisions have had 1-2 months.

I have on two occaisions been told I had to waitlist on the domestic portion (or reroute), but in both cases were able to upgrade the otherwise unavailable segment using MSU's as "V" class apparently goes out of a more generous inventory than the "G" class (and as a minimum M-fare - that can still be done at booking). Thus I am going to Barcelona in March on a mix of V, G, and Z classes!!

I have never been able to get a BC award on Delta metal for my two family members occaisonally traveling with me abroad, with the time restrictions I had, however, have always succeeded to do so on a partner awards on AF metal.

As the phone booking most often is quite impersonal I find that going to the CTO can make wonders for breaking through what on the phone has been said to be insurmountable hurdles. Excuding friendliness and leaning over the desk with a sad face IMHO facilitates the CTO agent usually seeing the absurd a the situation (such as Hecklers) and often will take (significant) time to call around and pull whatever strings available to break through the obstackle and get a satisfactory outcome. Thus my recommendation to Heckler is to go to the CTO and try to get upgraded, though I guess it is possible that the ATL-NRT, being the only Delta Metal route to the Far East, may have unique restrictions.

Hey,

On a recent DCA-ATL trip, DL wouldn't upgrade me when I checked in 45 minutes before departure even though 8 seats were still open and I was #1 on upgrade list. "Only 30 minutes before the flight, sir."

Their yield management guys must be VERY optimistic.

It just amazes me that I can't upgrade with a PMU and 45 seats free. DL must realize that giving medallions the capabilities to USE their benefits counts for something.

Delta - if I can't use your pathetic and over-controlled "benefits", then what benefit are they? PM and other medallions are too busy to have to track and fuss around with upgrade lotteries and waitlist roulette. Either we are valued customers or not, period. And by DL's own admission, i'm one of their favourites - travelling primarily on YBM fares.

I would have thought that corporate Wonks would value the yearly income they receive from a happy PM/GM versus one which decides his business is valued at other carriers who play fewer games than DL.. obviously greed and customerv indifference prevail at Virginia Avenue http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

[This message has been edited by heckler (edited Jan 26, 2004).]

A similar situation was pretty annoying recently out of LAS. I was hoping to upgrade at the ticket counter, but was told I'd have to wait for the gate to upgrade me. Unfortunately, the priority line at LAS is only for F class, not for PMs in Y (as it is shared among many airlines and managed by TSA). So I had to wait in the plebe line even though it was quite obvious that I would clear to F by flight time.

What days of the week are you flying? I've heard that certain days are so busy that they can fill BE with paying passengers on the ATL-NRT route. Why would Delta give away an upgrade when they know 99% of the time (give or take) they can fill it with people who are willing to pay? Again, this happens only on certain days of the week on this route specifically. I can't comment on other routes, but I live in Tokyo and take DL55/56 fairly often.

My outbound flight is the saturday ATL->NRT and the return is a sunday (DL56) flight.. so it is a weekend flight when people are more apt to fly.. but still i'm on full "Y" with a PMU and told to step aside. So what good is the benefit? Has Delta really changed it's tune?? (Not).

As someone eloquently said on here once, "Raw sewage does not a fruit salad make.."

I'm with Joe on this one - this is absolutely the toughest DL route to upgrade, and weekend flights are the worst. My bet is if you change your schedule to midweek, the upgrades will open up, but you're also VERY likely to find yourself in the back on your current schedule. I'm on the same route in a couple of weeks and got the upgrades by not flying on the weekend.

Just out of curiuosity why are you on a full Y fare? At that rate (probably over $1,600) you can buy a Biz class ticket on Korean and not worry about upgrades.

If Delta has a reasonable expectation that they can sell a BE seat for full-price, why shouldn't they try to do so before using it as an award seat. Is it possible that you're trying to travel on peak days AND during a peak season (such as spring)?

By the way, I've used PMUs several times (including ATL-NRT) and have never had any problems. A couple of times, I had to play with dates a little, but the folks on the phone were very nice and accomodating. Sadly, I won't be earning any more PMUs to use in the near future.

While I sympathize with your frustrations, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that on the peak travel days (in both directions) DL can sell 95%+ of J at full freight out of ATL. All that means is that 49-52 people in the southeast region (no better option than to connect through ATL, if they are not already based there) have companies that are sending them to Tokyo and can/will pay full boat. I will go ahead and say that many of these people may not even be top-tier Medallions, though these days one earns FO on one full J RT.

Full Y: $5,743.52

Full J: $7,772.52

If you get stuck in coach this might be the most expensive $2K your company "saves".

Remember the 24 hour rule, if Heckler doesn't clear he won't get a B/F seat at checkin or the gate even if there are 'empty' seats when he checks in.

Shoulda flown UA or AA or NW or CO...at least they will clear Int'l at the gate if the good seats are empty (unless someone is bending rules for non-rev's at the expense of paying pax.)

It's a government fare, still a "Y" (and considered "Y" for upgrade purposes), but doesn't cost the Government the full Y price.

I guess i'll just put my roulette ball into the Delta upgrade wheel and see if black comes up...

Maybe Heckler wanted to make sure he Returned in a seat! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Ah! What is the 'gummint fare for ATL-NRT ? What are the restrictions ? Some of those fares are considered non-published.

I have stated this in the past and will do again. NRT is the ONE flight in the system where upgrades are rare year round. Ask anyone in the know in ATL and they will confirm this fact (which of course begs the question, that as this has been so for years, both pre and post 9/11, why don't they go double daily or add some capacity somehow)?

Also see:
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/...rean_audit.htm

Y is also usually refundable.

Take your Y fare to AA, UA, or NW. I am sure they will be more reasonable.

I’ve had a terrible record this year trying to burn off the remainder of my 2003 PMU’s on domestic upgrades! Nearly every flight I’ve tried to book I’ve been waitlisted for FC. I’m booking out 3-4 weeks in advance on routes to DEN and ORD in February/March....hardly popular, touristy destinations that time of year.
And the seat maps show nearly all FC seats open when I’m trying to book.
The PMU’s were really my only incentive over the last decade to keep trying to reach PM. I used to use them on Int’l flights but I didn’t have to use any last year and am trying to use them domestically this year. I’m finding they are nearly useless. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I am having the same trouble with ALT to FCO in March. Waitlist for F with most seats open.

As an update for you "Asia Watchers", I am pleased to breath new life into an old thread - concerning the now less than 3 weeks NRT flight i'm on, and the state of play is:

777 BE Seats Taken (assume paid and confirmed) 29
777 BE Seats Free 19
777 BE Seats (For Crew Rest) 4

So as the next couple of weeks go by, we'll see what happens - the last time I got upgraded, it was about a week before, and being 6'4" tall, the upgrade is definitely nice to get..! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Bingo. That would be called good management.

My guess is that it will clear, Heckler, but can you please update us one way or the other?

Roger, wilco, Jeff

I recently returned from BKK; had been waitlisted on both ATL-NRT and NRT-ATL legs, and got cleared only 24 hours ahead of time. As in your case, it looked like plenty of seats left until the last minute. On both legs, there were empty BE seats available, so you may be in luck. Hope so.
PS. I'm heading back next week and have my upgrades confirmed more than a week out.

Update:

The view seat map page now shows 8 blue seats available in BE on the DL55 to NRT flight. Obviously this is getting concerning.. I called the SMS line and the helpful lady there told me that she had no idea when revenue will lift the waitlist.

Even more concerning was my question to her - "can you tell me how many seats, period, are still open in BE?" She replied "None, they are all sold." We all know the seat maps should be taken with a grain of salt as some may be paid for, but no seats assigned.. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

We'll see, and if things go south i'll have a few prime words in a letter for DL about their way of doing business... I refuse to be screwed by DL playing their musical upgrade game and will take all my business to NW. Paging Mikey1003.. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

OK..I am confused. I love my upgrades on international flights as much as the next guy. But explain to me why they are screwing you if they have sold all available seats...making money (which is why they exist)...instead of giving you an upgrade?

Unless I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the upgrade game, the idea is to give upgrades of seats that would otherwise fly empty to your top tier folks. Why is it wrong for Delta, on one of their most profitable routes, to hold off upgrades to make a sale...THEN make thse sales!? They say right up front that upgrades are capacity controlled, and in this case they SOLD that capacity to actual paying customers!

If you want to make sure you fly in Business...buy a Business seat...like the other passengers seem to be doing.

I really cant blame Delta in this case. I also agree that if things are that tight, why not add more flights?

Point taken Pointfreak, with the following caveats:

1). DL's business fares are prohibitively expensive ($7,800 for a "J" fare)

2). DL's "Y" (Coach) class is severely lacking, and for a guy who is 6'5" - the ability to remove my knees from my nostrills would be nice http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

3). No faulting DL for making money - but then MAKE AVAILABLE at least one or two seats per flight for Platinums or awards.. is this asking too much? AT least we'd have a chance. I'm not saying they shouldn't make money.

If they waitlist everyone on the flight until the day before, with NO hope for availability of any upgrade seats, then why tout the Skymiles program's great benefits when they are fallacious and hollow benefits? At a minimum, let us know how much availability is out there, so we can make our own choices as to where we have a better chance.

In addition to this, DL REQUIRES you to buy their Y,B or M class tickets simply for the right to upgrade - and if it doesn't pan out - oh well, thanks for all that extra money.

Don't get me wrong, I understand their motives, but I think they could do things in a more SGB manner..


I also believe they should add capacity on this route.. if it's so freaking profitable and so many people travel the ATL-NRT route, why not add another flight??????

[This message has been edited by heckler (edited Feb 25, 2004).]

As a former PM and MM I stopped flying DL in 2002 totally with rare exception. Upgrades were one reason.

Domestically,On a ATL-SJC trip, DL wouldn't upgrade me when I checked in the crown room 45 minutes before departure even though 7-8 seats were still open and I was #1 on upgrade list. "Only 30 minutes before the flight, sir.

My international was even worse. I was on a full Y from So. FL. and could not clear a flight 72 hours out top CDG They only had 17 empty seats still within 48 hours. I finally left a Message in the CEO office that they clear me or I will fly Y on AF home and never fly DL again. They did clear it and when we left 8 empty and 4 NR on the flight.

I was told in 2001 NRT is very rarely available for PMU as they sell out or hold hoping to till the last minute.

Since then I upgrade all the time on AA without trouble.

Please do not say we have only one flight and it is always full. If that is the case add one, its profitable.

I would fly AA, CO, NW etc to NRT as they are all better on overall service and availability than DL.

I can tell you from experience that at least some seats are available for PMUs on the ATL-NRT-ATL flights. I have made that run before and usually have the luxury and flexibility to choose my travel dates. I agree with heckler that this flight would be simply unbearable in coach, so I phoned SMS, gave them a window to work with, and they found seats on the outbound and return. I booked on the spot and had the BE seats I wanted. I can't speak for every flight, but PMU seats in BE have always been obtainable for me within a few days of my preferred travel dates.

heckler, they sold all the seats. DL should not be upgrading you. One of your retorts to Pointfreaks sound argument was "but it is so expensive!" Exactly, and they were able to sell them. Why should they give them to you when they can collect so much revenue?

By the way, perhaps you answer this somewhere above (I don't have time to go back and read the OP right now), but: How do you know that there are no PMU upgraded PMs on the flight already? Could one or more have bought ahead of you and secured the one or two B/E seats that you insist ought to be set aside for PMs?

You're right andy.. of course there could have been 1-2 PMU slots open when the flight was first loaded into the system. I have been on the waitlist since the week of January 20, when 45 seats were free in BE - or at least according to the seat chart (we all know how accurate that is sometimes http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )

I guess my frustration is with DL itself from time to time, and yes, they have the right to sell seats vs. give them away..

I've been very successful using my VIP upgrades to NRT on AA.

I think DL should sell as many seats as they can on this route. However, if there really is this much demand for J, then they should add a 2nd daily flight or put more BE seats in, rather than drive people away to other airlines. After all, they might take all of their revenue with them, not just the ATL-NRT bucks... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Greetings,

Heckler, be careful with whatever your eating. You went from 6'4" on the 17th to 6'5" on the 25th. At that rate you'll be 6'7-8" by the time of your trip and if stuck in coach you will definately not be a happy camper...

I think you got the message though by our last post. I can feel your fustration too because I've had to pass by a kid sitting in F class on a companion upgrade while my large/wide frame attempts to shimey into the miserable 17" wide seat in the back because MY upgrade did not clear and the Plat companion booted my lowly Silver status.

So when in rome do as the romans do... I intend to make Plat this year so it won't happen to me again.

Also I paid 2gs for the BF class on CO to Europe in April to make sure I 'cleared'.

No one holds a gun to our heads, we can play the game the way they set the rules or we can take our business elsewhere.

I took mine elsewhere and other circumstances worked out wonderfully for me as I ended up moving from one hub to the others. Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus...

To a point...
Let's not forget that upgrades are not completely benevolent and unpaid for. FF programs exist because airlines know they need to reward loyal customers -- that's why they offer them and that's why we participate in them. My point is that I would not subscribe to the view that Delta has the right to sell every seat -- they have explicitly made an agreement with every Medallion member that they WILL NOT sell every seat for revenue.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I fly to Sau Paulo & Santiago a lot, and often I get upgraded to BE. I view it as a bonus...a very pleasant surprise! Not a God given right because I am PM. Dont get me wrong...coach sucks on international flights and I sulk in the back as well, with the rest of steerage. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I guess the real question here is: Why dont they add more flights if the one they DO have constantly sells out with ultra-high dollar fares? The Delta folk are not total idiots (although I am sure some will beg to differ!) so there must be a reason. Is coach always packed on this flight as well, or only BE?

What is the downside that I am missing from an airlines point of view? Also will there be more opportunity with the recent codeshare agreements?

(BTW, I would gladly sit in a baggage bin for a chance to go to Tokyo! I have never been, and always wanted to go! Sushi from the masters! Mmmmmmm...)




[This message has been edited by Pointfreak! (edited Feb 25, 2004).]

Could be, among other things, a matter of obtaining another landing slot. NRT is one of the most tightly scheduled airports in the world.

Apparently $7,800 isn't that prohibitively expensive if they are getting it.

And at that price why in the WORLD would they hold back one or two seats per flight. That's over $15,000.

I absolutely agree it sounds like they need more capacity and I am sure there is a good reason for them not to do it (like they can't get approval for it) since it appears to be very profitable.

But, raising capacity might lower the $7,800 number and the problem might be it might come down to $6,000 and they sell out two planes in J.

One other thing as well, it would require 3 more 777s, and as we all know they do not have an overabundance of those! I suppose they could use the 763, but it seems stupid to reconfigure their 777s specifically for the NRT route, and then not use them.

Nah, they used to have flights from JFK, LAX, PDX and probably others in addition to ATL...