Circle trips, routings, and confusion
Apr 16, 2003, 9:17 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2002
Location: ATL
Programs: Delta platinum, Marriott platinum
Posts: 92
Circle trips, routings, and confusion
What's a circle trip? Last night I called the promotions department with my AmEx companion cert. in hand. The certificate says that circle trips are permitted but not stopovers. I asked if an ATL/ABQ/Bozeman/ATL routing would be permitted (seemed like a circle to me) using certificate as I need to spend time in both Bozeman and MT on same trip. She entered the data and said it would work. Today chking itinerary before purchasing I noted a date was wrong, so I called to correct and was told that the itinerary could not be booked because it involved stopover in ABQ. I then spoke with a supervisor in Customer Care who said the same. I asked--well, then what is a circle trip? Pause. The response--stopovers aren't permitted. What's a circle trip? Longer pause, then placed on hold; I then received an unintelligible reply suggesting that a circle trip had to do with using different airlines (I'm sure that would work on a Delta companion cert?!) or different routings BUT NO STOPOVERS. Anyone know what a circle trip is?
Remarkably, this conversation was preceded within 24 hours by a separate similar incident in which I booked an ATL-PVR trip. The agent booked me on an award ticket by running the return PVR-LAX-ATL, which allowed me to leave PVR 7.5 hours later than the only other flight available. Very little difference existed in travel time from routing he booked vs. routing PVR/Mexico City/ATL. When I called back to discuss outbound date, I was told by Customer Care that the first agent should never have booked the return trip as he did because that was not a permissible routing for an award ticket (PVR return cannot go through LAX; must go through Mexico City). Two days, two itineraries booked by Delta agents, and two itineraries ultmately shot down by Customer Care. I am going to call this evening and see what version I get.
Remarkably, this conversation was preceded within 24 hours by a separate similar incident in which I booked an ATL-PVR trip. The agent booked me on an award ticket by running the return PVR-LAX-ATL, which allowed me to leave PVR 7.5 hours later than the only other flight available. Very little difference existed in travel time from routing he booked vs. routing PVR/Mexico City/ATL. When I called back to discuss outbound date, I was told by Customer Care that the first agent should never have booked the return trip as he did because that was not a permissible routing for an award ticket (PVR return cannot go through LAX; must go through Mexico City). Two days, two itineraries booked by Delta agents, and two itineraries ultmately shot down by Customer Care. I am going to call this evening and see what version I get.
Apr 17, 2003, 6:35 am
#2
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Mesa, AZ., USA, DL Gold,CRC,WN whatever,AA nobody,HHonors Diamond,Starwood Gold, could careless about Rental Car Co's.
Posts: 1,007
Plz keep us updated on this. I have never used my AMEX cert yet. All I know is that it requires a Saturday night stay and must be "K" fare or higher.
Apr 17, 2003, 7:41 am
#3
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: GSP (Greenville, SC)
Programs: DL Gold Medallion; UA Premier Executive; WN sub-CP; AA sub-Gold
Posts: 13,393
A circle trip has two stopovers, by definition. Fly A to B to C and back to A, where B and C are your two stopovers.
A simple round trip has no stopovers and has one destination.
A "round trip with one stopover" is a circle trip but in some cases may be priced (or allowed by award) at the simple round trip rate. In this case the stopover is usually limited (e.g., only PHX, LAS or CMH on America West).
To state this another way, if X is the set of all roundtrips with one stopover, and Y is the set of all circle trips, then X is a subset of Y.
That is, if your award allows circle trips (set Y), it must also allow "round trip with one stopover" (set X).
A simple round trip has no stopovers and has one destination.
A "round trip with one stopover" is a circle trip but in some cases may be priced (or allowed by award) at the simple round trip rate. In this case the stopover is usually limited (e.g., only PHX, LAS or CMH on America West).
To state this another way, if X is the set of all roundtrips with one stopover, and Y is the set of all circle trips, then X is a subset of Y.
That is, if your award allows circle trips (set Y), it must also allow "round trip with one stopover" (set X).
Apr 17, 2003, 9:18 am
#4
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Atlanta, GA
Programs: DL 3 MM/DM, Marriott Titanium Elite, Hyatt Globalist, National Exec Elite
Posts: 4,003
In a circle trip, you fly to two different cities before returning to the originating city, and each leg has its own fare, so there are no bonus/free stopovers.
For example:
Leg 1 ATL-LAX K fare, $200
Leg 2 LAX-PDX (xSLC) M fare, $150
Leg 3 PDX-ATL Q fare, $275
Total fare: $625. No free stopovers. You complete a circle.
Now, if the fares ATL-PDX allowed stopovers in LAX, you could do the identical trip above and build in a stopover in LAX, in which case it would seem like a circle trip but it would really be, for the purposes of fare nomenclature, a roundtrip ATL-PDX with a stopover in LAX on the way out.
So, a circle trip really refers to how the fare is constructed. If you're visiting two different cities before returing to the origination point, and it's fared as three legs (like the first example above), it's a circle trip. If it's fared as a roundtrip with a stopover, and you're trying to communicate that with a res agent, don't call it a circle trip.
[This message has been edited by Robert Leach (edited 04-17-2003).]
For example:
Leg 1 ATL-LAX K fare, $200
Leg 2 LAX-PDX (xSLC) M fare, $150
Leg 3 PDX-ATL Q fare, $275
Total fare: $625. No free stopovers. You complete a circle.
Now, if the fares ATL-PDX allowed stopovers in LAX, you could do the identical trip above and build in a stopover in LAX, in which case it would seem like a circle trip but it would really be, for the purposes of fare nomenclature, a roundtrip ATL-PDX with a stopover in LAX on the way out.
So, a circle trip really refers to how the fare is constructed. If you're visiting two different cities before returing to the origination point, and it's fared as three legs (like the first example above), it's a circle trip. If it's fared as a roundtrip with a stopover, and you're trying to communicate that with a res agent, don't call it a circle trip.
[This message has been edited by Robert Leach (edited 04-17-2003).]
Apr 17, 2003, 11:46 am
#5
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Boston, UA 1K & MM
Posts: 1,114
Close, but not quite complete. Here is DL's definition of a circle trip, from the Contract of Carriage.
And here is the definition of a stopover:
So it seems to me that many circle trips include stopovers. No wonder they had trouble answering John's question.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Circle Trip means any trip, the ultimate destination of which is the point of origin, but which includes a stop at least one other point, or which is not made via the same routing/carrier in both directions.
Examples of Circle Trips:
Example 1: Point 1 to Point 2 on airline A
Point 2 to Point 1 on airline B
Example 2: Point 1 to Point 2 to Point 3 on airline A
Example 3: Point 1 to Point 2 on airline A (first class); Point 2 to Point 1 on airline A or any other airline (coach)</font>
Examples of Circle Trips:
Example 1: Point 1 to Point 2 on airline A
Point 2 to Point 1 on airline B
Example 2: Point 1 to Point 2 to Point 3 on airline A
Example 3: Point 1 to Point 2 on airline A (first class); Point 2 to Point 1 on airline A or any other airline (coach)</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Stopover means a deliberate interruption of a journey by the passenger, agreed to in advance by the carrier, at a point between the place of departure and the place of destination. Unless otherwise noted, a stopover will occur when a passenger arrives at a point and fails to depart from such point on:
a) The first flight on which space is available, or
b) The flight that will provide for the passenger's earliest arrival at an intermediate or junction point(s) or destination point, via the carrier and class of service as shown on the passenger's ticket, provided however, that in no event will a stopover occur when the passenger departs from the intermediate/junction point on a flight shown in the carrier's official general schedule as departing within four hours after arrival at such point.</font>
a) The first flight on which space is available, or
b) The flight that will provide for the passenger's earliest arrival at an intermediate or junction point(s) or destination point, via the carrier and class of service as shown on the passenger's ticket, provided however, that in no event will a stopover occur when the passenger departs from the intermediate/junction point on a flight shown in the carrier's official general schedule as departing within four hours after arrival at such point.</font>
Apr 17, 2003, 4:53 pm
#6
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Atlanta, GA
Programs: DL 3 MM/DM, Marriott Titanium Elite, Hyatt Globalist, National Exec Elite
Posts: 4,003
If you follow that definition of a circle trip, any round trip would be a circle trip. I guess that there are real world definitions of a circle trip and contractual definitions of same.
Apr 17, 2003, 6:24 pm
#7
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Boston, UA 1K & MM
Posts: 1,114
I don't read it that way. Each of the examples has something that makes the routing different than merely a round trip in the same class of service on the same airline.
Apr 17, 2003, 8:38 pm
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2002
Location: ATL
Programs: Delta platinum, Marriott platinum
Posts: 92
Last night I reloaded my arguments and tried again. Because I was not sure what notes the earlier agent had put in my file, I explained my situation to the promotions agent in some detail. He instantly agreed with me, said the ATL/ABQ/BZN/ATL itinerary was indeed a circle trip, worked just fine in the computer with the AmEx companion certificate, and saw no problem with the reservation. I asked him to just note that in the reservation, which he said he would. I was then put on hold. Then a long wait ensued and I thought, uh oh. After 5-10 minutes, he came back and said that someone in customer care would explain to me why the itinerary would not work. I spoke with a supervisor who said that a circle trip was the same thing as an open jaw, and my reservation was not an open jaw trip (certificate says open jaws/circle trips permitted). I said then why did they even need to say circle trips are permitted (not to mention the conceptual problem of an open jaw and a circle being synonymous). She would not budge.
After receiving the posted replies today, I called promotions again this time armed with the contract of carriage. Once again the first agent agreed but chked with a supervisor. This time the supervisor agreed with me, said there was no problem with the itinerary qualifying for the companion certificate, and personally called the city ticket office to confirm they are open all day on Good Friday. She noted the file, said she knew the workers at the ticket office, and said to have them call her if any problem. This supervisor is a 27 year Delta employee who was not worried about a higher-up sanctioning her. She stated that circle trips almost always include a stopover and since the certificate permitted circles, she believed the circle authorization overrode the stopover prohibition that otherwise existed with my itinerary. At one point she laughed and said, "Don't try to figure it out."
A final observation. She was a supervisor who looked for a way to make the certificate work for the customer. The other supervisors seemed so afraid they would be guilty of a violation they were not willing to go out on a limb on a confusing issue. Thanks to all of you for the input that kept me going and actually made the companion certificate have some value. Price for two=765 over the 7/4 week (dodging the blackout dates on certificate and dealing with the LUT prohibition).
After receiving the posted replies today, I called promotions again this time armed with the contract of carriage. Once again the first agent agreed but chked with a supervisor. This time the supervisor agreed with me, said there was no problem with the itinerary qualifying for the companion certificate, and personally called the city ticket office to confirm they are open all day on Good Friday. She noted the file, said she knew the workers at the ticket office, and said to have them call her if any problem. This supervisor is a 27 year Delta employee who was not worried about a higher-up sanctioning her. She stated that circle trips almost always include a stopover and since the certificate permitted circles, she believed the circle authorization overrode the stopover prohibition that otherwise existed with my itinerary. At one point she laughed and said, "Don't try to figure it out."
A final observation. She was a supervisor who looked for a way to make the certificate work for the customer. The other supervisors seemed so afraid they would be guilty of a violation they were not willing to go out on a limb on a confusing issue. Thanks to all of you for the input that kept me going and actually made the companion certificate have some value. Price for two=765 over the 7/4 week (dodging the blackout dates on certificate and dealing with the LUT prohibition).