Delta Pilots Need To Become Team Players
Feb 14, 2003, 8:21 am
#31
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ATL
Posts: 716
I imagine it must be difficult for any Delta employee (or their spouse) to sit back and read open, blatant, and sometimes harsh critcism of Delta and its employees that's often posted on FT. Many times we're posting our (pax) opinion, which may or may not have a factual basis.
I appreciate the posts from the employees to help us better understand the standpoint of Delta and those who work there.
With that in mind, the topic of pilot salaries is a long-standing debate. My long-standing opinion is that the pay should be whatever the market will bear, which has clearly changed as of late. However, with the current contract in place until 2005, the pilots/ALPA have no reason to budge until that point. It will be interesting to see if they can be influenced by Delta's management or other work groups to make a concession to assist the company in the challenging environment. I guess for now, the ALPA dues pilots pay are paying off for the pilots.
I appreciate the posts from the employees to help us better understand the standpoint of Delta and those who work there.
With that in mind, the topic of pilot salaries is a long-standing debate. My long-standing opinion is that the pay should be whatever the market will bear, which has clearly changed as of late. However, with the current contract in place until 2005, the pilots/ALPA have no reason to budge until that point. It will be interesting to see if they can be influenced by Delta's management or other work groups to make a concession to assist the company in the challenging environment. I guess for now, the ALPA dues pilots pay are paying off for the pilots.
Feb 14, 2003, 11:43 am
#32
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Smoke filled room, TPA and FLL/MIA :UAL 1K and 2MM,AA EX PLAT and 2MM,Lifetime Plat Starwood
Posts: 4,318
vetteset, My back to school comment was to make a point. Nothing can be done to keep his income from dropping. Thus he has 2 choices... live with earning less, or develop new skills to make himself more valuable. Not a slam, just a reality. And I do understand the suddeness that his job can be gone. Can you say nationalized health insurance? The second that passes, I lose millions in revenue and will have to fire more than a dozen very nice people. When the Controller of Currency came up with the Barnet Banks decision, in one second they threw away 80 years of law. That lowered my profit margins 75% overnight. At least your hubby has a pension from his Militery service, I would add a second pension from Delta; however, since that is an underfunded monster... I won't insult you with that!
To sum up. Yes it's unfair to you personally. No I'm not attacking you personally; But they Pilots are clearly overpaid and will either have to take a cut, or the airline won't exist. And if that occurs, they can be like the all the other pilots now IF they can get a job flying making like $20,000 flying a crop duster with no senority. Basically, the pilots have their heads in the sand.
To sum up. Yes it's unfair to you personally. No I'm not attacking you personally; But they Pilots are clearly overpaid and will either have to take a cut, or the airline won't exist. And if that occurs, they can be like the all the other pilots now IF they can get a job flying making like $20,000 flying a crop duster with no senority. Basically, the pilots have their heads in the sand.
Feb 14, 2003, 2:23 pm
#33
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ATL
Posts: 716
Board orders Delta to stop pilot furloughs
from the Atlanta Business Chronicle:
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/s...45.html?f=et50
from the Atlanta Business Chronicle:
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/s...45.html?f=et50
Feb 14, 2003, 2:51 pm
#34
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PIT/DFW/MEL; AA Exec. Platinum & 4MM, QF WP
Posts: 7,689
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ATLpax:
Board orders Delta to stop pilot furloughs
from the Atlanta Business Chronicle:
"ALPA is pleased that the System Board has agreed with ALPA that the company cannot continue furloughing pilots," said Capt. William C. Buergey, Delta MEC chairman. "While we are disappointed that there is no immediate recall of currently furloughed pilots, we are also satisfied that the ruling provides a mechanism for returning furloughed pilots to the cockpit, and that this method does not depend on the company's decisions."
</font>
Board orders Delta to stop pilot furloughs
from the Atlanta Business Chronicle:
"ALPA is pleased that the System Board has agreed with ALPA that the company cannot continue furloughing pilots," said Capt. William C. Buergey, Delta MEC chairman. "While we are disappointed that there is no immediate recall of currently furloughed pilots, we are also satisfied that the ruling provides a mechanism for returning furloughed pilots to the cockpit, and that this method does not depend on the company's decisions."
</font>
egad.
Alice never saw a Wonderland like that.
[This message has been edited by martin33 (edited 02-14-2003).]
Feb 14, 2003, 2:57 pm
#35
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ATL, PM
Posts: 440
No recalls. Just no more fuloughs after Feb 2003.
Feb 14, 2003, 4:51 pm
#36
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PIT/DFW/MEL; AA Exec. Platinum & 4MM, QF WP
Posts: 7,689
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BertBamboo:
No recalls. Just no more fuloughs after Feb 2003.</font>
No recalls. Just no more fuloughs after Feb 2003.</font>
Feb 14, 2003, 4:56 pm
#37
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ATL, PM
Posts: 440
Delta won the first grievance. On what basis does ALPA claim back pay?
Feb 14, 2003, 5:05 pm
#38
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: BOS/DFW/SJD
Programs: DL DM 2.2MM
Posts: 124
My father in law was a Delta pilot for 39 years over the 30 years he was part of my life we argued about unions and over paid pilots. He would often state that he was a highly paid bus driver. He would further explain that he was paid so handsomely for the skills that he had and prayed that he would not have to use them. The stories he and his retired friends would tell about flying would make your hair curl. I have a great deal of respect for the men and women upfront that I entrust with my life. The market will eventually decide what pilots are paid. The Captain that brought the DC10 into a Iowa cornfield and saved many lives, was he over paid? I also have never seen a Greyhound at 30,000 feet. I still think they are overpaid for the actual hours worked. As a side note I'am sure he is rolling in his grave with the current mismanagement at Delta.
Feb 14, 2003, 5:08 pm
#39
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: TPA
Programs: Hilton Gold, DL DIrt Medallion
Posts: 38,267
I'm not sure how being in the best financial position of all the "big six" qualifies as mismanagement.
Feb 14, 2003, 10:52 pm
#40
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PIT/DFW/MEL; AA Exec. Platinum & 4MM, QF WP
Posts: 7,689
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by SRQ Guy:
I'm not sure how being in the best financial position of all the "big six" qualifies as mismanagement. </font>
I'm not sure how being in the best financial position of all the "big six" qualifies as mismanagement. </font>
not to mention the brilliant strategy of RJ'ing serious midcon business routes ex-DFW.
The problem is, the Fortress Hartsfield strategy is a duck-and-cover strategy. It maximizes short-run survival, but has nothing to say about a viable medium or long run. The long-run isn't Song, by the way-- see the Boyd thread here on the DL forum; you can't viably use it to replace DL's hub spokes.
Feb 15, 2003, 6:39 am
#41
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: PNS
Programs: DL PM / 1MM "Enhancee" (Frequent Flyer) Since 1990
Posts: 1,156
quote from Marq 02-13-03:
"I'm waiting for the day of unmanned cockpits. Technology is already there. Why do we need overpaid bus drivers up front. If they think they are worth their pay, disband the union and lets see what a free market pays."
Marq, I hope your on the first unmanned flight...whenever that is.....sitting in first class, drinking your champagne and eating bon bons when at 35,000 the computer of the unmanned flight decides to lock-up. You'll probably wish you had a couple of "overpaid bus drivers" to pull your ... out of the fire.
Cheer from an "overpaid USAF Bus driver"
"I'm waiting for the day of unmanned cockpits. Technology is already there. Why do we need overpaid bus drivers up front. If they think they are worth their pay, disband the union and lets see what a free market pays."
Marq, I hope your on the first unmanned flight...whenever that is.....sitting in first class, drinking your champagne and eating bon bons when at 35,000 the computer of the unmanned flight decides to lock-up. You'll probably wish you had a couple of "overpaid bus drivers" to pull your ... out of the fire.
Cheer from an "overpaid USAF Bus driver"
Feb 16, 2003, 7:13 pm
#42
Join Date: May 2001
Location: ATL
Posts: 716
Did anyone see the article in the New York Times Business section, "Four Choices for Airlines (Only One is Probable)"?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/bu...html?tntemail1
I believe this site requires registration, but the quick summary is the analyst quoted in the article says there are only four ways airlines can change their financial picture:
1. Capacity removed through liquidation
2. Decrease in oil prices
3. Sudden uptick in business travel
4. Major concessions by labor
The analyst goes on to say that the only one that will make a big enough impact is #4.
[This message has been edited by ATLpax (edited 02-16-2003).]
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/bu...html?tntemail1
I believe this site requires registration, but the quick summary is the analyst quoted in the article says there are only four ways airlines can change their financial picture:
1. Capacity removed through liquidation
2. Decrease in oil prices
3. Sudden uptick in business travel
4. Major concessions by labor
The analyst goes on to say that the only one that will make a big enough impact is #4.
[This message has been edited by ATLpax (edited 02-16-2003).]
Feb 16, 2003, 7:34 pm
#43
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,655
I tend to agree with what Sam Buttrick says in the NY Times interview. Let me regurgitate an excerpt from an article I wrote last July on this exact subject.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
(This) theory makes a fitting corollary to my thesis which states that "Without a complete overhaul of operating costs every decade, an airline cannot remain competitive in a deregulated environment."
Historically, this has proven to be very accurate. The first round of industry deaths was seen in the early 80s with consolidation being the fate of those unable to control operational costs, with a few shutdowns (Braniff). A decade later saw a spate of bankruptcies, some resulting in liquidation (Eastern, PanAm) and others in restructuring (Continental, TWA). This time round, the ranks are being thinned again with TWA already biting the dust, with the jury out on USAirways and United.
How do the survivors keep themselves viable? Their methodology varies. In the first round, some sought to survive by acquisition, seeking instead to increase revenue rather than cut costs. PanAm acquired National, TWA acquired Ozark, Northwest acquired Republic and Texas Air acquired pretty much everyone else. Others went the way of labor concessions, which took the form of B-scales at American, "Blue Skies" at United and the infamous Lorenzo bankruptcy at Continental. American's B-scales were the only truly long-term solution to the problem, which bought them an additional generation of savings and allowed them to consolidate their strong position. Similarly, Continental's abrogation of labor contracts achieved the same end, but killed the golden goose while doing it. In the second round, some achieved their targets by acquisition again (Delta acquiring Europe, AA acquiring LatAm), with United using ESOP as a means towards their target for that generation. Continental used bankruptcy yet again, as did TWA. Throughout this, USAir continued to acquire many small carriers and built themselves up into the major carrier than they became. Northwest played conservatively and chose to avoid major capital expenditures while increasing revenue streams through the introduction of the first comprehensive marketing alliance. Fleet renewal programs at most of the carriers also slashed direct operating costs.
In their own way, each of these carriers thus were able to overhaul operational expenditure every decade. Usually, this was done at the expense of the labor groups, but occasionally at the expense of creditors or other airlines.
Alas, with maturity comes seniority, and seniority brings with it the related pitfalls of higher labor costs and less efficient workrules. A new entrant, by definition, does not have any of this baggage. Additionally, a well-funded new entrant has the advantage of choosing the most beneficial markets for infrastructure investment and vendors for capital acquisition, benefits that existing operators utilized generations earlier and are now irrevocably tied into, despite possible changes in the operating environment. In the short term, provided sufficient capital exists, and provided the appropriate markets are targeted, it is very easy for a new entrant to be succesful, often to the detriment of the incumbent who is handicapped by pre-existing baggage outlined above. However, as new entrants themselves consolidate and become incumbents, the next generation of operational streamlining comes knocking and the cycle continues. We are experiencing the first throes of one of these streamlining cycles right now.</font>
(This) theory makes a fitting corollary to my thesis which states that "Without a complete overhaul of operating costs every decade, an airline cannot remain competitive in a deregulated environment."
Historically, this has proven to be very accurate. The first round of industry deaths was seen in the early 80s with consolidation being the fate of those unable to control operational costs, with a few shutdowns (Braniff). A decade later saw a spate of bankruptcies, some resulting in liquidation (Eastern, PanAm) and others in restructuring (Continental, TWA). This time round, the ranks are being thinned again with TWA already biting the dust, with the jury out on USAirways and United.
How do the survivors keep themselves viable? Their methodology varies. In the first round, some sought to survive by acquisition, seeking instead to increase revenue rather than cut costs. PanAm acquired National, TWA acquired Ozark, Northwest acquired Republic and Texas Air acquired pretty much everyone else. Others went the way of labor concessions, which took the form of B-scales at American, "Blue Skies" at United and the infamous Lorenzo bankruptcy at Continental. American's B-scales were the only truly long-term solution to the problem, which bought them an additional generation of savings and allowed them to consolidate their strong position. Similarly, Continental's abrogation of labor contracts achieved the same end, but killed the golden goose while doing it. In the second round, some achieved their targets by acquisition again (Delta acquiring Europe, AA acquiring LatAm), with United using ESOP as a means towards their target for that generation. Continental used bankruptcy yet again, as did TWA. Throughout this, USAir continued to acquire many small carriers and built themselves up into the major carrier than they became. Northwest played conservatively and chose to avoid major capital expenditures while increasing revenue streams through the introduction of the first comprehensive marketing alliance. Fleet renewal programs at most of the carriers also slashed direct operating costs.
In their own way, each of these carriers thus were able to overhaul operational expenditure every decade. Usually, this was done at the expense of the labor groups, but occasionally at the expense of creditors or other airlines.
Alas, with maturity comes seniority, and seniority brings with it the related pitfalls of higher labor costs and less efficient workrules. A new entrant, by definition, does not have any of this baggage. Additionally, a well-funded new entrant has the advantage of choosing the most beneficial markets for infrastructure investment and vendors for capital acquisition, benefits that existing operators utilized generations earlier and are now irrevocably tied into, despite possible changes in the operating environment. In the short term, provided sufficient capital exists, and provided the appropriate markets are targeted, it is very easy for a new entrant to be succesful, often to the detriment of the incumbent who is handicapped by pre-existing baggage outlined above. However, as new entrants themselves consolidate and become incumbents, the next generation of operational streamlining comes knocking and the cycle continues. We are experiencing the first throes of one of these streamlining cycles right now.</font>
Feb 16, 2003, 7:47 pm
#44
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Programs: Hilton Platinum, Alaska MVP Gold
Posts: 2,363
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by vetteset:
WebTraveler: I ASSUME you don't know me very well, because I'm not ripping Pax! The majority of FT'ers KNOW I LOVE our pax and speak nothing but kindness. Cigarman: On suggesting my husband go back to school? He was a USNA grad and has served his country for 22 years and is on his second career. He is also in perfect health to pass the exams by the FAA and one problem and his career is gone. Many of you cannot say if you have a heart mummer or if you have blacked out for a period of time you would lose your career. I am not here to defend anyone, I have my own job to worry about. It seems to be 30 against 1 here and I am outnumbered. I just wanted to state that we have taken a cut and keep in mind AA and UA both lost two aircrafts on 9/11 and that did not help their financial situation.</font>
WebTraveler: I ASSUME you don't know me very well, because I'm not ripping Pax! The majority of FT'ers KNOW I LOVE our pax and speak nothing but kindness. Cigarman: On suggesting my husband go back to school? He was a USNA grad and has served his country for 22 years and is on his second career. He is also in perfect health to pass the exams by the FAA and one problem and his career is gone. Many of you cannot say if you have a heart mummer or if you have blacked out for a period of time you would lose your career. I am not here to defend anyone, I have my own job to worry about. It seems to be 30 against 1 here and I am outnumbered. I just wanted to state that we have taken a cut and keep in mind AA and UA both lost two aircrafts on 9/11 and that did not help their financial situation.</font>
Now the tables are turned and the airline is still the bad guy.
It is an industry in havoc. No doubt. But some airlines are making money. How are they doing that? (1) pay and benefits are less, and (2) work rules are much different.
Things need to change and pilots need to pitch in. Otherwise there wont be a job. I remember how I used to see Southwest pilots help out in every fashion for the customer. Never seen the majors do that - ever.
It is unfortunate....hopefully it will change.
Feb 16, 2003, 7:58 pm
#45
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PIT/DFW/MEL; AA Exec. Platinum & 4MM, QF WP
Posts: 7,689
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by B747-437B:
In their own way, each of these carriers thus were able to overhaul operational expenditure every decade. Usually, this was done at the expense of the labor groups, but occasionally at the expense of creditors or other airlines.
</font>
In their own way, each of these carriers thus were able to overhaul operational expenditure every decade. Usually, this was done at the expense of the labor groups, but occasionally at the expense of creditors or other airlines.
</font>
What seems to be different about this cycle:
1. The effective absence of the merger option. DOT/DOJ are clearly of a dim view on these at this point.
2. Better control of the hidden part of the cost structure-- the capital base in place and future plans for it. Airlines have 3 main expense categories: fuel, labor, and capital asset support. In the past cycles I don't think we've seen much on the capital side (except spank-the-creditors in BK cases). This time, there seems to be more emphasis on getting more efficient use out of the assets in place-- e.g. AA's 767-300 fleet consolidation and de-peaked hubs at ORD and DFW.
3. A striking feature of this current cycle is the perversity of prudence. Careful husbanding of reserves at DL has won them the longest time-til-Ch11, but the reward for this seems to be two looong years of begging DALPA for mercy at the potential expense of taking one's eye off the ball elsewhere in the operation.
[This message has been edited by martin33 (edited 02-16-2003).]