Well, no doubt. But Delta can change that on a moments notice. And let's not forget that B/E is NOT defined by the seat, as we have been reminded many times here at FT, if a plane has B/E seats and it goes on a domestic route, that doesn't make it B/E.

Here is the ETOP 138 routing:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=g...YLE=&ETOPS=138

Financially, I actually think this route might work for DL. This would not be significantly different, from the perspective of distance or time, than going via Europe to South Africa. The fares to South Africa are relatively high, which means that the plane does not need to be full to make the flight profitable. And the demand for travel to South Africa keeps growing, justifiably.

My personal opinion, if Delta is thinking strategically (there is a first time for everything), is that this might be Delta's attempt to establish itself in that market using current equipment until such time as Delta can afford the 777-200LR, which could then operate nonstop ATL-JNB or ATL-CPT. South African made the decision to use Airbus equipment for the ATL-JNB route, and as a result now has that hideous operational stop at Sal Island both ways to/from South Africa. A nonstop service in both directions would be very attractive to the business traveler, and between Delta, Northwest, and Continental (members of SkyTeam all) this service should be able to generate enough traffic to reasonably fill the plane. Remember, the fares in this market are high enough, and the demand for business travel great enough, that you don't have to pack the plane to make money.

And given the very, very limited existence of award seats on SAA, it would certainly be nice to have an all-Delta option for award travel to South Africa.

That's it! You jogged my memory as my neighbor told me Delta got this Pan AM route, but until now has let it lay. Since RG pulled the plug on JNB and DL is going BACK into GIG, kinda makes sense?
Folks don't count on those FF tkts yet, DAL has not announced this or even made it known to the public...so your getting an inside scoop (sort of).
If any of you out there work for DAL and have MORE info, please share it.

Now if we had something more than a rumor to hang our hopes on...

Be sure to let us know if you hear anything further, BOA VIAGEM

Edited to add: Well, I was typing as you were posting BOA VIAGEM. Keep us posted please.

There is A LOT of US gov't travel to Southern Africa these days which would almost certainly be channelled to a flight like this. Currently, I often can't get the DL-codeshare seats on SAA on my required inbound/outbound dates and have to either change my dates or go to CDG on DL and then JNB on AF. More self-interestedly, I would LOVE this routeing (travelling economy for over 14 hours for the gov't entitles you to a one-day stopover at an intermediate point...stopping in Rio would be more fun than Paris). :cool:

That looks like a great circle route attempting to cross into ETOPS 138 no-go territory (the dark blue). I think GIG-JNB would need ETOPS 207 for great circle but might be viable on ETOPS 180 by adding route miles.

Looking at it, I think you're right.

A potential diversion point would be Ascension, an island in the middle of nowhere which has an airstrip as well as RAF and USAF bases. It is 2171 miles from GIG and 2759 miles from CPT, so it might work if route miles were added.

Ah, but the BusinessElite product most assuredly DOES include the BusinessElite seat! A BusinessElite seat on a flight does not mean the flight offers the BusinessElite service. For a flight to offer the BusinessElite service, it MUST have the BusinessElite seat! That's why DL flights to Central America do not offe BusinessElite, they offer "Business Class".

Also, I'm not sure that you can easily change out a Domestic DL 764 interior for a BusinessElite interior. Remember, it's more than just ripping out seats and putting in different seats. Their's lighting, power (BusinessElite seats are electrically operated, not purely mechanical), ventilation, in-flight entertainment systems, and so on. I imagine refitting a 764 from domestic to BusinessElite is pretty complex.

Hmmm... If the flight times (NA-EUR-JNB and NA-GIG-JNB) are similar, why would I want to route through GIG? If I were travelling for business, I'd rather route through EUR, which gives me more options for backups, in case there's a problem with EUR-JNB. If I'm travelling on a premium-class award, I'm DEFINITELY going through EUR, where I am much more likely to get a better premium-class product (flat-beds in business are the norm EUR-JNB on major carriers).

Further, I'm not convinced that DL can attract the O&D pax out of GIG. How much demand is there for South America-JNB? It is a clever concept.

Finally, what does operating the route as ETOPS 138 do to the cost of operating the route? I'd think if DL could use already-certified equipment and crews to operate the route as ETOPS 180, they'd be better off.

Just Thought of Something - 763ERs ARE ETOPS-180!
 

I guess my mind just isn't working too well any more. Delta DID operate ATL-HNL with 763ERs at one point. Since CONUS-HNL appears to require ETOPS 180 aircraft, it looks like they might be able to use a 763ER GIG-JNB.

No, you are missing my point. If Delta decides tommorrow that a 764 is BusinessElite then it is. I am not talking about doing anything to change the plane. Yes, I think this would be a bad marketing move for B/E but they can do it because they define the terms.

Also, never forget, that Business or BusinessElite is still considered a lesser class of service than F/C, despite the fact that we know that B/E blows that away. They could even market a particular route that they needed the 764 on as the "only route that has First Class." This would be terribly misleading though.

ETOPS 138 is simply ETOPS 120 with a 15% margin. It has zero relevance to GIG-JNB.

The 763ERs in general can operate ETOPS 180 as can the 764ERs, so the questions is.... what is DL authorised for by the FAA.

Paging ConcordeBoy...

I would be EXTREMELY surprised if DL ever tried to offer domestic First Class on international long-haul flights. I'd be even MORE surprised if DL tried to market domestic First Class as "First Class" for an international long-haul flight. At best, domestic First Class might possibly be considered comprable to BA's World Traveller + or Virgin's Premium Economy.

Nah, if DL actually does this, it'll be with the 763ERs configured for BusinessElite. Of course, this pulls 4 763ERs out of service to Europe. Which European destinations get hit?

Another thought is that DL could just give up on HI, as NW has done, pull the 764s off the HI routes, and redeploy them as international aircraft? I don't know how much of a money-maker Delta's HI routes are? They certainly can't be doing too well, if DL continues the never-ending HI First Class fire sale.

Well, we KNOW that the 763ERs and 764s are authorized and insured for TransPac ETOPS 180. We also KNOW that the 763ERs are authorized and insured for TransAtlantic ETOPS, but probably less than 180.

Well DL already uses 767-400s for the 6h45 LIM-ATL flight, which is not much shorter than some transatlantic flights (JFK-MAD for example is 7h15). For this flight they sell the front cabin as "Business".