texan09

Song will stay and probably grow some. Grinstein did an about-face when he saw the value Song brings to Delta overall.

I think the debate within Delta is how much and where Song flies.

texan09

Boeing cancelled production, plenty of life left in the 757.
Doesn't mean Song can't use a different type of equipment.....?

RSSrsvp

Has anyone read the article in this week's Business Week magazine concerning DL & Song? It was extremely favorable toward Song, and even hinted that DL may switch a good part of mainline to a Song type operation.

BumpMe!

I'm not sure how this new promotion which offers free ipods and itunes fits into a "low cost" operation's bare-bones strategy:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340730
Methinks WN would not do such a thing.
(If WN is the standard)

martin33

true, but the economics wouldn't be as favorable.

bocastephen

Song offers very little competition to B6 except for lower fares - jetBlue's aircraft are far more comfortable and their service delivery more reliable. If they offered a premium cabin and a decent loyalty program, they could really run away with alot of new business. Offering lower fares is not going to help DL and will just continue to erode their margins.

If DL moves the bulk of its domestic operations into Song, and the premium service (FC cabin, Medallion recognition) levels are reduced or eliminated, how does DL think it will retain, let alone grow its relationship with loyal business customers - the people who make discretionary decisions to fly DL and maintain loyalty.

Perhaps DL now feels that air travel has been reduced to the lowest common denominator and business customers deserve no better treatment or product than the Smith family on vacation. If DL feels that every customer is only seeking the lowest fare, then perhaps it has decided to abandon a domestic premium product after all and just sell seats'n'snacks.

Because the initial hints seemed to have Grinstein leaning towards getting rid of Song as a product "distraction", if he has in fact turned around his opinion, then it seems that even the new DL management has no idea what its true direction should be. This company is in really big trouble.

milemaker

Surely not!!!! I have been banking on DL finally realizing that there are two to four different segments on the market out there. Hopefully, they will roll out two or three products to meet the needs of everyone. This needs to be done using the DAL trademark on all the products. However, the toughest thing will be getting people to pay for what they get.

Its like hotels, cruise lines and automobiles. Those that can only afford Carnival or Chevrolet and Super 8s, get a certain product and are happy with it. Those that can afford Princess, Buick and Courtyards get a better product for about a 20% premium. Finally, those that can afford Cadillacs and Marriott, Hilton, etc. get an even better product. Again, you get what you pay for.

Therefore, I am hoping to see a product line that will appeal to my desires, and as a shareholder, I hope that have product lines that the rest of the consumers will find meets their particular needs.

This can be done as we have seen it done in the hotel industry for years and while it will be difficult to do it with a long established airline, I think it is viable.

One things for sure, things are going to get very interesting over the four weeks.

disneyfan1313

Sigh. Once again I feel alone but I feel like I have to stick up for Song. Better Service, Better Attitude, Great Food, Direct TV, Nonstop Flights with NO RJ's to deal with on all the popular routes from MCO. Why wouldn't I love it? Now I am not medallion ... BUT MOST TRAVELERS ARE NOT and most travelers can only dream of flying in first class. Over the past year or so I have heard Song's name recognition go up at least two fold with people I interact with at work (in a tourism based industry) and also the majority of them who have flown JetBlue and Song seem to prefer Song.. Now admittedly that is out of MCO where JetBlue does not advertise quite as much as they do out of NYC but still. I feel that song is a step in the right direction and I hope that it will continue and expand for years to come. Heck - I would be happy to see it replace DL mainline.. But I'm a 20something leisure traveler who can only dream of one day making Silver...

Milemaker: How do you define those of us who use the internet to get Carnival and Motel 6 prices for Princess Cruises and Marriott properties? Anytime in my travels I use priceline to get $30-50 a night Hilton and Marriott properties.. I watch for sales and get 7 day princess cruises for $499... Why would you pay top dollar?

vetteset

Song is a great product and it is here to stay..management has even mentioned in the next few years to include other model a/c's... TV, brand new a/c interiors, martinis, great service by DL's finest, cheap fares and still we have complaints from some on this board. As for the f/a's, about 1500 f/a's applied and you had to have certain critera before you application was accepted. No failure to Covers, good sick record, etc.. They picked 400 to start and then started adding more and more from mainline and I think the total now is over 800 based in MC0,PBI,MIA/FLL,NYC & BOS. Everyone I have talked with, love it and I rarely hear any complaints. I usually chat to FF's inthe exit rows that for some reason have ended up on Song; I tell them to stay away from the first section of the a/c because that is the Chuckie Cheese section!!! Oh, and i've been on a long vacation but have been lurking! Good to see the same old names....

milemaker

While there are deal to be had at higher end properties, lines, etc, they are the exception and are usually last minute deals for unsold inventory that would otherwise go unused. And usually always involve a weekend.

However, if you travel for business during the business week and have little flexiblity, then those deals are not available to you. If you want to stay at a Marriott in LAX, then you pay $150 plus per night or you do down the the Courtyard for $100 or even lower to the Super 8 for $69. What I am saying is there are various segments in the travel industry that have/require different tastes and I think DL will provide the same type of line-up in the airline industry.

Just look at the portfolio of prouducts that Marriott, Hilton, and Starwood have in their brands.

You are and I are in different types of situations and we are comparing apples and oranges. Hope you understand what I am saying.

jwhite4

I disagree. Us FlyerTalkers are a different breed, FF alliances and brand (ie. CO vs UA) do make a big difference. However, for the majority of people, I think airline choice basically comes down to price, and flight times (combination of desired departure time, plus direct/connecting times). UA has United and Ted, DL has Delta and Song, etc, perhaps slightly different airlines (ie. Delta vs Song), however I'm pretty sure neither ever competes against the other.
If you want to fly from LGA to FLL, for example, some flights might be mainline Delta, others might be Song. However, I don't think you'll find both operating at the same time (ie. 12p flights, $100 r/t on Song, $200 r/t on Delta). If you want to fly at 10a you might be on Song, if you choose 11:30a then it's Delta. You aren't specifically choosing the carrier as the desired time. Similarly, some flights might use a RJ's, while others during the day full jets. You either choose the departure/flight time, and get whatever carrier flies it, or else you choose the carrier (ie. full body vs RJ) and get the desired time. I don't think you'll see Delta (or any airline) offer identically timed flights on different 'airlines'.

This is NOT the case (typically) with other transportation providers (car rental, hotel rooms, etc). In general, when you get to a destination, you could equally choose between an Alamo or National rental (both owned by same company), or between a Marriott or Courtyard room (again, same owners). Here, there is enough differentiation in both quality and price that both 'segments' of the market can coexist with each other.

Jeff

bocastephen

I just dont see how it's possible for an airline to provide multiple service lines. If an airline serves a city pair, say LGA and FLL, which has a mix of business, high-end leisure, and discount leisure customers, are you suggesting that DL provide service on two or three different sub-carriers to cater to each market segment? That is just not practical.

That type of market segmentation works for many industries, including hotels and retail, but not here. Delta already suffers from brand confusion - Delta mainline, Delta Express, Song, Delta Shuttle - as well as product confusion, such as the introduction of shuttle config. planes on certain business routes.
While Delta mainline service continues to degrade and suffer, efforts are being made to prop up other businesses like a butterfly catcher madly waving their net around. There is no corporate focus on being the best at one thing.

In my view, Delta suffers from two major problems. Firstly, out of control labor costs. This needs fixing first before anything else. Make peace with labor and get everyone on the same boat working towards the same goal. Secondly, Delta has become a high-volume low-margin carrier - moving vast numbers of mainly low-fare passengers. There is a huge reliance on traffic to/from Florida markets and that market is being constantly eroded away by competition from LCCs. The result is more seats selling for lower fares just to get passengers onboard and keep the volume flowing. Just look at their operation at FLL - 763s and 764s going back and forth to Atlanta, each one bursting at the seams and constantly overbooked. Lots of revenue, but not alot of profit.

In my view, they need to radically change their way of doing business, and that is to reduce capacity, improve product quality, and get the average fare paid up. Whenever I search for fares, I constantly see Delta/Song and USAirways tied for the lowest fare, while jetBlue, Southwest, American, Continental, etc, are selling their inventory at higher margins because they have less of it to sell.

The 763/4 should be on transcon and international duty only, the 777 on long-haul flights only (not flying to MCO), and the bulk of the mid-range domestic fleet should be 738s and 757s (the MD88s/90s should be replaced with 738s when there is money to do so). The RJs are not bringing in the promised margins, so they should be relegated to feeder markets of under 1 hour only and their numbers reduced. The Embraer 170/190 aircraft could offer Delta an excellent opportunity to balance capacity and cost on some shorter flights and give them a solid smaller capacity aircraft to leverage. It might be too little, too late, but if DL was to really improve its product quality in the main cabin, they could replace the P+W engines on the 757s with Rolls Royce models that will give them ETOPs certification and use some of those 757s for Europe runs during periods of lower demand instead of flying wide-bodies with empty seats or alot of seats filled with low fares.

The mainline product needs a complete overhaul with new seat designs that strongly emphasize space and comfort and return to Delta's traditional service model. These are just my high-level opinions and I am sure there will be many who disagree, but I just can't see how Delta can offer different products to cater to different market segments. It needs to decide which single market it can play in successfully and create a plan to reinvent itself as the de facto quality standard for that market. If the components of Song get people excited, then by all means they should be incorporated into the mainline fleet. Satellite TV, affordable air/ground phones, broadband Internet, etc. - all of these features would offer value to many business customers and be a product enhancement that should attract business and be a reason to pay abit more. Why place innovative product enhancements in a division whose goal is to charge less?

milemaker

My feelings are the opposite. Why cant DL run different divisions under one umbrella? Yes, the have had MAJOR disconnect with Leo Mullin and his idiots but look at things this way.

1. DL runs a premium International and TransCon service under the DL banner that return DL to its former glory. The yields are better in this market and new amenities would follow like Satelite TV and wireless internet connections. Of course, the pricing would reflect it and the only competition is the established legacy carriers. For now!!!

2. DL runs a mid tier domestic service that is not near as frequent as it is now with a better product that will probably include some Song ingredients along with a front cabin and other legacy carrier perks. Much like we see now in markets DL competes with AirTran. Of course, pricing matches AirTran and this includes simplifing the fare rules to match the low cost guys but on a wider scale, probably nationwide. Naturally, DLs mid tier wouldnt offer competing flight against Song. DL will be focused at the business traveler. I think we will see all HUBs including ATL reduced quite a bit. In fact, I see stations like LAX, PHX, SEA picking up service while the new mini-hub/focus cities see a reduction in service. We will probably see DL mainline shrink in all its HUB cities but expand in the larger out stations and see a balancing of its asset use.

3. The Song model stays intact for certain markets that caters to the Smith families vacation on those bargain hunters who would choose Song over JetBlue and Southwest because of its affiliation with DL.

4. ASA/Comair, etc. fills in the really small such as Meridian, MS, Chattanooga, TN etc. I look for the connection carriers to see a pretty big decrease over a 12 to 24 month period. Probably cut by about one-third.

Fleet long term will consist of 7E7, 777, 737-800 or its new variant, and a 717 or one of the new regional jets that offer some decent room for passengers. Of course, this is way long term and at least 10 to 15 years down the road.

I think this is what we are going to see and I think it just might work, the big thing will be execution and getting the employee groups on side and supporting it.

FF524

You all may laugh, but I was thrilled with Song. The cabin, TV, experience, Flight Attendents, food, the whole nine yards. DL mainline service couldn't hold a candle to the product in terms of those pieces. To me, the Song product, should be replacing the Delta product. Perhaps the Song product won't work on its own. But it would work if you used their aircraft, the fun pesonalities on the plane, kept the TV and food service and added the two class service to the planes.

To get to FL or Vegas on Song, I am willing to hop to a Song city vs. the non-stop from CVG. Again, call me crazy, but the whole thing "worked" for me.

milemaker

This is what I am talking about. The "new" DL mainline will offer the amenties of Song plus a front cabin and maybe free meals or something else. This will set them apart from the other legacy carriers and the low cost carriers. The down side will be fewer frequencies to certain markets, but who really needs hourly service to a city? I see some things reverting back to the glory days in terms of service and frequency. I also see bigger aircraft in the equation.

ATC cannot continue to handle hourly service in markets with RJs out the ... in addition to going everywhere and anywhere. DL has the chance to come out with a new model that will have everyone scrambling and at the same time scratching their heads.

Very interesting times indeed, if only we could get a fly on the wall to tell us the real story. I must admit it is fun speculating though