GagaPilot

Just thought I would share an interesting IDB I witnessed last night. Mostly just posting as an anecdote for other FT nerds, but also as there have been several discussions lately about how much DL IDBs/VDBs.

I was on DL2169 ATL-ECP, the last flight of the night. Before boarding the GA announced they were oversold by 9 and needed volunteers to take a morning flight. 9 seemed high to me to oversell the last flight of the night, but I'm assuming the number got that high because of displaced passengers from earlier flights. By the time I boarded with F they were down to needing only 3. I boarded, and took my seat in 3A.

As boarding appeared to finish no one had sat in 3B next to me. The GA came onboard and said to the FA: "I'm showing 1 open up front and 3 in the back." The FA checked his mobile device and confirmed that's what he saw as well and went to the back to confirm. He came back confirming it, and the GA said "Great, as we never got enough volunteers and still need 3 seats. I'll send them down." As he goes to leave, another FA comes up saying there's a problem with a row of 3 seats. After she went up to the flight deck the CA went back to look at the seats. He quickly came back up front and called MX. Within a few minutes MX was there and whatever the issue was could not be fixed quickly, so they had to defer that row. The 3 passengers in that row then filled the 3 remaining seats in the back.

The GA came back down and told the FA they had IDB'd the other 3 remaining passengers for maintenance reasons and would be good to go shortly. The FA pointed out empty 3B next to me, to which the GA said he had offered to the 3 passengers, but they had declined as they didn't want to split up from traveling together. The FA then asked if they were going to UG someone into the seat, to which the GA said "No, I'm just gonna take the first non-rev on the list, we gotta get this flight out." (Kudos to the FA for trying to get the seat filled with revenue pax, either the IDB ones or an UG).

A few minutes later a non-rev comes on board and sits next to me. The FA even offered her a quick PDB. The CA comes out, looks at 3B, and goes back up the jet bridge. A few minutes later he and the GA came back on board. The CA returned to the flight deck while the GA came down and said to the passenger in 3B "Ms. XXXXXX I am so sorry, but the CA pointed out a policy I had overlooked. Since we had to involuntarily deny boarding to 3 revenue passengers for those broken seats, we can't take any non-revs tonight. I am so sorry. If you are qualified to sit in a jumpseat we can take you, but otherwise I am going to have to ask you to deplane." The non-rev quickly gathered her things and stepped off (taking the PDB with her I might add, haha).

And with that the door closed and 3B next to me was empty for the short flight. I did feel bad for the non-rev as I'm an airline pilot myself, but never non-rev because I don't like the stress of knowing whether or not I will get a seat.

So ultimately the IDB was for mechanical reasons, not for lack of volunteers. But it was still an interesting process to watch and observe.

hi55us

I wonder if they will truly process it as a IDB or tell the last customers, "Sorry, we had a mechanical issue and we're going to have to pay you $500 in VDB, here's where you go for your Applebees gift card." I wouldn't put it beyond ATL GAs.

GagaPilot

Fair question! I will admit that I am quite skeptical of the DOT documents that show DL�s insanely low IDB statistics compared to other carriers. This isn�t the first I�ve witnessed.

MCO Flyer

Was this flight on one of the ex-Batik/Lion air 739s perhaps (ATL-ECP sees a lot of those)? I ask because bring oversold by -9 seems unusually high for DL but the 2 ex-Lion Air/Batik 739s have 2 separate configurations (one with 173 seats and another with 180) so curious if there was a last min aircraft sawp that helped contribute to an overinflated oversell.

mediator

This is it. It appeared a ex-Lion Air 739 operated OP's flight.

GagaPilot

Yes, it actually was. It was the 73R (multiple rows of C+) and not the 73J (with one row of C+) and had been this way since I booked the ticket about a month ago. N961DZ per FlightRadar24. Do the R's have different configs?

HDQDD

I would be a bit surprised if this were an official policy. Also not sure why the pilot would be involved with a boarding issue?! Unless, of course, it involves whether someone is fit to fly, i.e. drunk or a danger to themselves or others, but certainly not a boarding priority issue... Certainly there are policies to take all paid pax before NRSA, but in the case of a group who doesn't want to split up, I can't see why they would intentionally leave a seat empty when there were eligible pax waiting. I'd be curious to hear from DL peeps if this is really a policy. If it's not a policy, I hope the NRSA filed complaint and the CA is disciplined.

sethb

Or: "We can call this involuntary and pay you $400 per federal regulations. Or you can voluntarily accept $600 instead."

HDQDD

I'm not. DL seems to oversell less than it's competitors (or at least has better algos to predict no-shows and match the proper amount of overselling), and DL gives their agents more empowerment to solicit VDBs. I've been ~2500 DL flights, and while I haven't made an exact count, I'd say <100, maybe <50 have requested VDBs. I've even offered to VDB a few times, but they've never needed my seat.

Not sure if it's still the case, but when I was an agent for another airline in 2000, pax had to sign a form that they agreed to be VDBed (basically a contract to give up their seat for x compensation). It was also not uncommon for an agent/supv to offer people even more $ to accept a VDB (as opposed to IDB) after the flight departed. Like all carriers, no one wants to take IDBs*

*There is at least once exception to this rule...International flights. For security reasons I won't elaborate on why. Also, Int'l flights are not included in DOT reports.

GagaPilot

I was surprised too, as at my airline we do not have any policy like that which I am aware of. In fact, it has been emphasized lately to get any non-revs on if at all possible. Given the revenue pax declined to split up, I don't see how it would have been an issue for the non-rev to travel. The lead FA was very proactive in offering possible solutions to the GA and seemed to be motivated to get everyone on if possible.

GagaPilot

For me it's not that I'm skeptical of DL overselling less.... I've seen much higher oversell numbers at my airline. But it's the fact DL classifies so few actual IDBs. I would speculate a fair amount are indeed after a flight has departed and a person who was in reality IDB'd, accepts a VDB, and it makes the stats look better.

Not to get into OMNI territory, but I do think it's time airlines are regulated a bit heavier to prevent this overselling and related issues. If you buy a ticket, you should be guaranteed a seat. In reality this isn't the case. One more reason I will never, ever, buy a BE fare.

hhdl

Someone posted DOT figures in the AA forum indicating that DL's combined DB rate is 2x WN's and 3x AA's or UA's. The difference is the distribution between V and I. DL is more aggressive now about overbooking (or perhaps they have more IROPS leading to overbooks) than the others.

indufan

Are you willing to pay more for your seat to make up for the empty seats that go out if they don't oversell? We aren't talking about a few seats, many, many flights are oversold sometime during the marketing history. I saw a flight that was -13 once and it went out with empty seats.

GagaPilot

Personally, yes. I know that might be an unpopular opinion, but if I buy a ticket, I expect there to be a seat. Sure weird things can happen (such as the row of seats becoming INOP on this flight). But if airlines cut out, or greatly reduce, the overselling of flights it's a benefit to all:

Peace of mind for ticket holders.
A level of reasonable assurance that in case of an IROP, there will be other options/alternatives available.
More chances for non-revs to take advantage of their benefits. (I have those, but never do so because they are almost worthless with how the loads are).
Better morale for passengers and crew.

Of course the beancounters won't like it. But then again those are likely people who have no first-hand experience with how the operation actually works.

Just my opinion.

DLASflyer

IDB only applies if a flight is oversold. DL could argue the flight was not oversold at the time of departure, as one seat went out empty. The 3 pax who were denied boarding due to the maintenance issue, not the original oversale.